Thunderbolt

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Thunderbolt
Posted on: 09.07.2012 by Ervin Calvery
I love my new MacBook Pro with Retina Display.

However, I don't love that there are just 8 devices that are Thunderbolt-enabled (http://www.apple.com/thunderbolt/). I also really don't love that each cable costs $50.

My backup drive, while very pretty, has horribly broken itself and needs to be replaced. I don't FireWire, don't want another USB3 drive (because I hate to connect to storage or audio I/O through a hub and need the USB ports for the latter), and would kick myself every time I had to wait for slower tech, so I feel that Thunderbolt, though expensive and lacking selection, is the way to go.

While I would love a Promise Pegasus, the $2000 price tag is insane. I would rather invest that in a musical instrument.

Now, the Little BigDisk, the cheapest of the Thunderbolt drives, (http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10549) is $549 for 2TB. It would be silly not to spend the extra $50 to get a 2big (http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10573#a3), which is actually a great product, and can be used in RAID 1 for security.

But... $599 for a hard drive and another $50 for a cable? Have I lost my mind?
robin loo
03.11.2012
Originally Posted by djproben
The problem isn't that people want something faster than USB3 (at least not on this site); the problem is that we have firewire devices and these new Macs have done away with the firewire port. So the only option of connecting a FW soundcard or hard drive or whatever is a thunderbolt adapter. Apple is finally making one at least, but it's not a hub, so you can only connect one device to one port. The big promise of TB for us is not so much the speed as the compatibility - you can have a hub with a monitor port, two FireWire ports, and two USB ports all connected to a single thunderbolt bus. This would be great if you have an MBAir - put your sound card and other devices on one bus and you still have some USB ports available for MIDI controllers or to plug in a flash drive or whatever. So it's frustrating that TB has been available for this long but there's still no hub available (other than the $1000 monitor that has some firewire and USB ports) and the only option that Apple has made available basically wastes most of the flexibility of the port. The Belkin thing will be cool but shit, $400 for a freakin hub?? My USB hub costs $7.
+1, exactly what i am believeing!
Marguerite Truka
15.07.2012
Originally Posted by botstein
Well, I have a job.

And yes, the Promise Pegasus and the 2big are RAID storage solutions.
However the only thing you can read and write to is ur macbook pro and that is limited to 3gbs! unless you buy yourself a new pc and put a raid solution in that! would would need a decent raid card to hit the 10gbs so that again is gunna cost 500. so to buy the drive an build a pc that will see the difference is going to cost you 2grand! ur current setup with the macbook pro will not see any performance boost over usb apart from the transer starting about 1ms quicker.

are you planning on building a pc that you will be able to see the speed increase?
Ervin Calvery
15.07.2012
Originally Posted by tombruton69
of course if all your storage is on raided ssd's go for it and you have a forest of money tree's
Well, I have a job.

And yes, the Promise Pegasus and the 2big are RAID storage solutions.
Ervin Calvery
15.07.2012
Originally Posted by CrissC
I can't help my self, but for back-ups and data ( movies, music, photos - family, party etc.). I would use a network drive. So it is available 99% of the time you are at home and not when you plug the drive in and it is available for every one on the network (it is handy sometimes - like sharing photos, music, videos somewhere else in your apartment/house or with your friends) .
Really?

The transfer speeds of WiFi are nowhere near that of Thunderbolt. Besides, wireless security is a joke.

I know it didn't appear in my original post, but I tour a lot and really push my electronics to the limit (like many on this community ). If I'm in Quebec for a week, (slow, easily compromised) network drives in New York are just useless.

Originally Posted by CrissC
IMHO I would buy some smaller drive for TB and use it for storing files which requires fast transfer rates or to be with you everywhere ;-)
The Elgato SSD, the smallest thunderbolt drive, starts at $450, which is not particularly cheap.

Having any file in only one place is asking to lose it.
Danae Dumler
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
Seriously…guys into video have the patience of mountains. I can't stand to wait for my 6MP still camera to transfer over USB……I have to be doing something else at the same time.
They get interns to do it for them
Ervin Calvery
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
If you're working with text files, yes. The speed difference is noticeable for me when I hit about 10MB. With FW, it just happens. With USB2, I have to wait. And waiting sucks.

The press announcements and belkin's website say 299. Also, who pays MSRP?
This press release?
http://www.belkin.com/pressRoom/rele...ck_060512.html
Dorie Scelzo
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by MyUsername
Files we use on day to day basis are okay with USB
If you're working with text files, yes. The speed difference is noticeable for me when I hit about 10MB. With FW, it just happens. With USB2, I have to wait. And waiting sucks.

Originally Posted by botstein
I might pick up the Belkin (which incidentally will be $399 MSRP, not $250)
The press announcements and belkin's website say 299. Also, who pays MSRP?

Originally Posted by MyUsername
Just so that we're clear: Thunderbolt has been around longer then the newest MBP, in fact my early 2011 also has a thunderbolt port.

So yes, it's been well over a year and still little progress on Thunderbolt applications.
So does my early-2011. The Retina MBP is not ready for the prime time because it dropped firewire.

I agree that it'll still be a while before anything meaningful comes out for it in the Audio world. The UA Apollo is supposed to get it as an upgrade, there are PCIe chassis that use it (which is awesome, and Apogee has a Thunderbolt Symphony IO thing coming out as well……and they're not exactly consumer pieces.

Which is why I use firewire. Without firewire, I believe the computer's a joke……unless you do video editing, since they've been using USB2 for a long time to connect to cameras and just dealing with painfully slow import times because they didn't have a better option.

Seriously…guys into video have the patience of mountains. I can't stand to wait for my 6MP still camera to transfer over USB……I have to be doing something else at the same time.
Nereida Jasnoch
10.07.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
It's one of the tragedies of early adopters that peripherals end up expensive for a while
robin loo
03.11.2012
Originally Posted by djproben
The problem isn't that people want something faster than USB3 (at least not on this site); the problem is that we have firewire devices and these new Macs have done away with the firewire port. So the only option of connecting a FW soundcard or hard drive or whatever is a thunderbolt adapter. Apple is finally making one at least, but it's not a hub, so you can only connect one device to one port. The big promise of TB for us is not so much the speed as the compatibility - you can have a hub with a monitor port, two FireWire ports, and two USB ports all connected to a single thunderbolt bus. This would be great if you have an MBAir - put your sound card and other devices on one bus and you still have some USB ports available for MIDI controllers or to plug in a flash drive or whatever. So it's frustrating that TB has been available for this long but there's still no hub available (other than the $1000 monitor that has some firewire and USB ports) and the only option that Apple has made available basically wastes most of the flexibility of the port. The Belkin thing will be cool but shit, $400 for a freakin hub?? My USB hub costs $7.
+1, exactly what i am believeing!
Danae Dumler
02.11.2012		The problem isn't that people want something faster than USB3 (at least not on this site); the problem is that we have firewire devices and these new Macs have done away with the firewire port. So the only option of connecting a FW soundcard or hard drive or whatever is a thunderbolt adapter. Apple is finally making one at least, but it's not a hub, so you can only connect one device to one port. The big promise of TB for us is not so much the speed as the compatibility - you can have a hub with a monitor port, two FireWire ports, and two USB ports all connected to a single thunderbolt bus. This would be great if you have an MBAir - put your sound card and other devices on one bus and you still have some USB ports available for MIDI controllers or to plug in a flash drive or whatever. So it's frustrating that TB has been available for this long but there's still no hub available (other than the $1000 monitor that has some firewire and USB ports) and the only option that Apple has made available basically wastes most of the flexibility of the port. The Belkin thing will be cool but shit, $400 for a freakin hub?? My USB hub costs $7.
Rosina Steinkuehler
02.11.2012		Go with USB 3 drives. Your not going to see any performance increases with thunderbolt unless you are saturating your USB3 bus. As tom pointed out unless you have a massive raid (2-3 drives will not really cut it) you are wasting your cash on new technology. USB 3 can go up to 5gb a sec so its half the speed of thunderbolt.

Thunderbolt is shiny but its not worth the added cost just yet IMO.
robin loo
02.11.2012		thanks for the link.. hopefully it will be affordable..

i find it really strange that obviously this is a really good connector regarding transfer speed, compatibility etc., it has been out since 1 1/2 yrs. now (feb '11) and there are so little adapters and hubs.

edit: did some searching. apparently belkin wants 400$ for the hub
Tatum Ansaldo
02.11.2012		Belkin are bringing this out: http://www.belkin.com/us/thunderbolt but they keep pushing back the release date, it's currently Q1 2013.

I'm very much with you on this, I don't know how it works so I can't really say 'how hard can it be', but it does seem strange that no one's made a thunderbolt USB hub or something. You may say that's a waste of a high speed port, but let's face it there's barely anything made for TB except external HD's right now.

Maybe the production costs wouldn't be worth it.
robin loo
02.11.2012		didnt want to open an new thread.. i'm really wondering why there arent more thunderbolt adapters or even better hubs out there..

i am believeing of buying a MBA some time, but i have a firewire soundcard and an external monitor. i wish there would be a thunderbolt hub with a monitor connection, a firewire port and maybe some usb slots.. why is nobody producing hubs like that?
Marguerite Truka
15.07.2012		message from botstein

(removed by request)

================================================== ==========================

I dont see why that needed to be a pm. I have not posted my comments to argue with you or tell you what to do. All I am saying is at this current moment in time the only way to see any advantage of thunderbolt over usb3 is to build a pc with one of the 2 mobos that support it. thats not my opinion atm its a fact.

I am not telling you to do it I am saying it is the only way atm. Obv there will be new mac pro's coming out but we dont know when and id say its almost certain they will have thunderbolt and sata 3, then you can raid some drives in that and see the benefits.

my posts have been about thunderbolt in comparison to usb3, as ur op was about the decision. from your other comments I see you are dead set on thunderbolt and if you really want it to say hey ive got a thunderbolt drive go for it. my pc has 64 gig of ram, is it rediculous yes, would i of been fine with 32 yes, do I see a performance post over that, not really. but I wanted it so I got it.

I dont understand why you would not have a pc. I have been accused of being a linux fanboy in the past but in all honesty I just use the best OS for the task ie server/raw computing/deving = linux gaming = windows music = OSX

I share access to a 3/4-petaFLOP supercomputer. I dont see how that makes any difference?
Marguerite Truka
15.07.2012
Originally Posted by botstein
Well, I have a job.

And yes, the Promise Pegasus and the 2big are RAID storage solutions.
However the only thing you can read and write to is ur macbook pro and that is limited to 3gbs! unless you buy yourself a new pc and put a raid solution in that! would would need a decent raid card to hit the 10gbs so that again is gunna cost 500. so to buy the drive an build a pc that will see the difference is going to cost you 2grand! ur current setup with the macbook pro will not see any performance boost over usb apart from the transer starting about 1ms quicker.

are you planning on building a pc that you will be able to see the speed increase?
Ervin Calvery
15.07.2012
Originally Posted by tombruton69
of course if all your storage is on raided ssd's go for it and you have a forest of money tree's
Well, I have a job.

And yes, the Promise Pegasus and the 2big are RAID storage solutions.
Marguerite Truka
15.07.2012		YOU ARE MAD!!!!

its not optical thunderbolt that is not coming out for a few more years. So you have mechanical thunderbolt so you have your 10gig speed thats awsome, right ok so lets write to it, hey wait im only getting though put of 2.2gig per second. Oh ive got a sata 2 hdd(chances are it will be lower). if you use usb3 you get the same speed! ok so a few years have passed you though lets get a new macbook pro! we now have sata3 so you get about 5.5 gig on the thunderbolt vs 4.5 gig on usb 3.

also remember with usb 3 can plug into pretty much any computer made in the last 10 years! Thunderbolt your stuck to the latest macs from the last 2 years and a few PC's only know of 2 mobos supporting thunderbolt as of yet.

so in 99% of use cases for no or very little performance increase is it really worth an extra 400 bucks?

of course if all your storage is on raided ssd's go for it and you have a forest of money tree's
Ervin Calvery
15.07.2012
Originally Posted by CrissC
I can't help my self, but for back-ups and data ( movies, music, photos - family, party etc.). I would use a network drive. So it is available 99% of the time you are at home and not when you plug the drive in and it is available for every one on the network (it is handy sometimes - like sharing photos, music, videos somewhere else in your apartment/house or with your friends) .
Really?

The transfer speeds of WiFi are nowhere near that of Thunderbolt. Besides, wireless security is a joke.

I know it didn't appear in my original post, but I tour a lot and really push my electronics to the limit (like many on this community ). If I'm in Quebec for a week, (slow, easily compromised) network drives in New York are just useless.

Originally Posted by CrissC
IMHO I would buy some smaller drive for TB and use it for storing files which requires fast transfer rates or to be with you everywhere ;-)
The Elgato SSD, the smallest thunderbolt drive, starts at $450, which is not particularly cheap.

Having any file in only one place is asking to lose it.
Kathe Teetsel
15.07.2012		I can't help my self, but for back-ups and data ( movies, music, photos - family, party etc.). I would use a network drive. So it is available 99% of the time you are at home and not when you plug the drive in and it is available for every one on the network (it is handy sometimes - like sharing photos, music, videos somewhere else in your apartment/house or with your friends) . IMHO I would buy some smaller drive for TB and use it for storing files which requires fast transfer rates or to be with you everywhere ;-)
Dorie Scelzo
12.07.2012		I meant the guys doing it on their own.
Danae Dumler
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
Seriously…guys into video have the patience of mountains. I can't stand to wait for my 6MP still camera to transfer over USB……I have to be doing something else at the same time.
They get interns to do it for them
Dorie Scelzo
12.07.2012		http://www.belkin.com/pressroom/rele...lt_010812.html

I guess mine is older. Maybe they changed it.
Ervin Calvery
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
If you're working with text files, yes. The speed difference is noticeable for me when I hit about 10MB. With FW, it just happens. With USB2, I have to wait. And waiting sucks.

The press announcements and belkin's website say 299. Also, who pays MSRP?
This press release?
http://www.belkin.com/pressRoom/rele...ck_060512.html
Dorie Scelzo
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by MyUsername
Files we use on day to day basis are okay with USB
If you're working with text files, yes. The speed difference is noticeable for me when I hit about 10MB. With FW, it just happens. With USB2, I have to wait. And waiting sucks.

Originally Posted by botstein
I might pick up the Belkin (which incidentally will be $399 MSRP, not $250)
The press announcements and belkin's website say 299. Also, who pays MSRP?

Originally Posted by MyUsername
Just so that we're clear: Thunderbolt has been around longer then the newest MBP, in fact my early 2011 also has a thunderbolt port.

So yes, it's been well over a year and still little progress on Thunderbolt applications.
So does my early-2011. The Retina MBP is not ready for the prime time because it dropped firewire.

I agree that it'll still be a while before anything meaningful comes out for it in the Audio world. The UA Apollo is supposed to get it as an upgrade, there are PCIe chassis that use it (which is awesome, and Apogee has a Thunderbolt Symphony IO thing coming out as well……and they're not exactly consumer pieces.

Which is why I use firewire. Without firewire, I believe the computer's a joke……unless you do video editing, since they've been using USB2 for a long time to connect to cameras and just dealing with painfully slow import times because they didn't have a better option.

Seriously…guys into video have the patience of mountains. I can't stand to wait for my 6MP still camera to transfer over USB……I have to be doing something else at the same time.
Nereida Jasnoch
10.07.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
It's one of the tragedies of early adopters that peripherals end up expensive for a while
Noriko Lebowitz
11.07.2012		Thunderbolt has a lot of opportunity, but I feel like it won't become VERY popular until there are some cheaper options. I do although agree with Botstein about how apple's products are extremely expensive yet people still buy them. And people will always buy them.
Ervin Calvery
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by rdej47
Does anyone know why thunderbolt is so expensive compared to USB 3? They're both relatively new and it's not like USB 3 has hit the mass market point where it's products can be cheap. It kind of sucks because I feel like thunderbolt is just going to be another Apple thing that gets phased out (like Firewire) based on it's high price point.
Apple doesn't really phase things out due to high price points. Look at any of their products: Their profit margins are INSANE and their products always in a higher price point than competitors.

Using arithmetic, I'm deduced that LaCie marks up their drives around $100 for thunderbolt connectivity.
Ervin Calvery
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by frequencym
Apple only has a subset of the thunderbolt devices. You can pick up one of these plus a go-flex drive, that will be way cheaper than $549:

http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-GoFlex.../dp/B006P1QWOQ

There is also this from Buffalo:

http://www.amazon.com/Technology-Min...on+thunderbolt
The first link is a $100 adapter. In any case, $549 is only $50 cheaper that $599, not 'way cheaper.'

The Buffalo is cheaper, indeed, but 1TB isn't big enough for me to use for anything.


And annoyingly the thunderbolt to firewire adapter isn't out yet. Some time this month supposedly.
Annoying indeed.

One of the reasons thunderbolt cables are so expensive is that they are active cables; there are chips in the plugs.
I never knew about that, cool!
Ervin Calvery
11.07.2012
Originally Posted by mostapha
Dito.

Thunderbolt is awesome. Well…it will be when people actually start using it. There's also a $250 docking station coming out later this year from Belkin that has USB 3 and FW800 ports.

It's one of the tragedies of early adopters that peripherals end up expensive for a while……just one more reason I don't believe the Retina MBP is ready for the prime time yet.
I love this computer! There certainly isn't anything wrong it.

Depending on how many things I need USB for, I might pick up the Belkin (which incidentally will be $399 MSRP, not $250) or similar. I will probably need to connect to a lot of I/O, and I don't know if or how soon any audio interfaces will run Thunderbolt. I don't want multiple hubs and dongles on my desk.
Nereida Jasnoch
11.07.2012		Give it time, I believe thunderbolt will become quite popular, it's just ahead of it's time.
Files we use on day to day basis are okay with USB and for the people who want speed FW is still adequate.
Thunderbolt is still something we don't need and a lot of companies have yet to jump on the band wagon.

Just my 2 cents
Allan Neubert
11.07.2012		Apple only has a subset of the thunderbolt devices. You can pick up one of these plus a go-flex drive, that will be way cheaper than $549:

http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-GoFlex.../dp/B006P1QWOQ

There is also this from Buffalo:

http://www.amazon.com/Technology-Min...on+thunderbolt

That said, I believe you'll be fine running your midi devices & drive through a powered USB 3.0 hub (key word there is powered).

And annoyingly the thunderbolt to firewire adapter isn't out yet. Some time this month supposedly.

One of the reasons thunderbolt cables are so expensive is that they are active cables; there are chips in the plugs.
Nancey Inderlied
10.07.2012		FW isn't phased out. Virtually every single professional audio interface runs over a dual FW400 I/O. Except for the newer "state of the art" racks that are TB enabled. You need a FW I/O if you plan on doing any kind of digital recording, from the low end up. Even that cheapo (and fucking awesome) Presonus hybrid desk has an integrated FW card. Just because FW drives aren't constantly on sale at your local Staples doesn't mean they aren't bring used.
Johnsie Kingrea
10.07.2012		Does anyone know why thunderbolt is so expensive compared to USB 3? They're both relatively new and it's not like USB 3 has hit the mass market point where it's products can be cheap. It kind of sucks because I feel like thunderbolt is just going to be another Apple thing that gets phased out (like Firewire) based on it's high price point.
Dorie Scelzo
10.07.2012
Originally Posted by djproben
I'd grab the $40 Firewire-to-Thunderbolt adapter from Apple and use a Firewire drive.
Dito.

Thunderbolt is awesome. Well…it will be when people actually start using it. There's also a $250 docking station coming out later this year from Belkin that has USB 3 and FW800 ports.

It's one of the tragedies of early adopters that peripherals end up expensive for a while……just one more reason I don't believe the Retina MBP is ready for the prime time yet.
Danae Dumler
09.07.2012		I'd grab the $40 Firewire-to-Thunderbolt adapter from Apple and use a Firewire drive.

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