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GEMA strikes again...

Home :: General Discussion :: GEMA strikes again...Reply

GEMA strikes again... Posted on: 04.12.2012 by Birgit Gondal This is getting ridiculous. http://www.mixmag.net/words/news/gem...ref_map=%5B%5D I don't even know what to say about this.
Cole Maroto 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by Shishdisma I don't believe you understand how royalties work. Clubs all over have always had to pay track royalties per-play, and there are multiple collection agencies. (There are two operating in the US I believe, ASCAP and the other one I cant remember). Its just the fact that it's down to a relationship between the club ownership and the agency in question to figure out who owes what on a per-play basis. the other group you are believeing of is bmi and you are not entirely correct on how royalties are paid out from these 2 groups in the us. any venue that plays music buys a blanket license from both of these groups. the cost to the venue is dependent on several factors. in the case of live performances in clubs and other venues (or even restaurants playing cds and radio stations, etc) it's literally impossible to know all the songs that get played to pay royalties properly. only the top 200 highest grossing venues have to report their played songs. the rest of the money collected from blanket licenses get divided up by ascap and bmi as they see fit, not really the club owners outside of the top 200 (and not based on a per play situation)...which probably gives an advantage to the big artists that have a lot of plays elsewhere as they will see some of this money even if their song isn't played. http://musicians.about.com/od/publis...re-Tracked.htm http://musicians.about.com/od/publis...lties-Paid.htm http://musicians.about.com/od/publis...et-License.htm
Syreeta Piela 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by Era 7 that would be if the GEMA paid each of their members equaly but that's no the case. most small electronic music producers are, what they call "attached members", the lowest kind of membership in the GEMA but also the biggest in numbers (over 60000). the power and most of the money lies with the "regular members" and "extraordinary members" which in comparison make up a very small amount of all the members (around 3500). so chances are high that if you pay more money to the GEMA you are sponsering some guy from Modern Talking rather than your small time techno producer. Thanks @Era, seems almost ironic after the figures you mention with 'attached members' being the majority. But I guess I can only hope that the smaller, underground music producers could get their slice of the cake and a small return, considering how many clubs are operating, small producers could actually see some income from selling tracks! I'd be more than happy to hand in a tracklist at the end of every set to see this facilitated.
Nancey Inderlied 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by deevey I disagree Its a huge difference in the way things work for a large majority of DJ's, I for one do not keep set lists, I put a track in my deck and regularly will change my mind halfway though. If my mind is on writing stuff down or how much its gonna cost if i mix 3 tracks together instead of two, my mind is not focused on the job at hand. You dont have to do anything. It's the responsibility of the club's administration to work out who owes what, and the majority of the time, it's a rough estimate based on set times.
Rolanda Clodfelder 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by Shishdisma I don't believe you understand how royalties work. Clubs all over have always had to pay track royalties per-play Definetly not how its "always worked" perhaps in the USA, but I'm not familiar with that system. In Ireland for example the club/bar/premises would work out a license fee based on the # of feet though the door and size of venue rather than the sheer amount of tracks played. Originally Posted by Shishdisma This doesn't actually change the way things work, it's just that close to nobody understands how it actually works. This isn't a massive change in how DJs can work or how much DJs "pay," it's just a restructuring of how royalties are addressed (and actually closer to the US system, to my understanding, rather than a massive blanket charge that was previously applied.) I disagree Its a huge difference in the way things work for a large majority of DJ's, I for one do not keep set lists, I put a track in my deck and regularly will change my mind halfway though. If my mind is on writing stuff down or how much its gonna cost if i mix 3 tracks together instead of two, my mind is not focused on the job at hand.
Nancey Inderlied 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by deevey TBH if the price is 13c per track the money is not the thing that would bother me @ around 2.50 euro per hour (which could be factored into fee's anyhow) Moreso the issue I have is the administration, which essentially means your DJ set has to be orgainized like a radio station so they can break them down correctly. Now while that is not necessarily an issue for those on Traktor or VDJ perhaps most of the time I for one will let a track bleed on the fader slightly as a loop maybe, which WILL add to a the "played tracks" even if I were previewing. Now in Ableton it becomes more of an issue, where I would be playing samples etc .. unless there is some kind of cutt off point which says "song has been played" ... e.g. 90 seconds needs to be played before qualifying for payment. Hip Hop and button mashers no doubt would be more pissed - perhaps though we can get back to playing 5 whole minutes of a decent track rather than 5 bad tracks in one minute which IMHO is not necessarily a bad thing. Not an issue that effects me currently, but i'm watching it as other countries could/might easily follow suit if its uncontested in Germany. I don't believe you understand how royalties work. Clubs all over have always had to pay track royalties per-play, and there are multiple collection agencies. (There are two operating in the US I believe, ASCAP and the other one I cant remember). Its just the fact that it's down to a relationship between the club ownership and the agency in question to figure out who owes what on a per-play basis. This doesn't actually change the way things work, it's just that close to nobody understands how it actually works. This isn't a massive change in how DJs can work or how much DJs "pay," it's just a restructuring of how royalties are addressed (and actually closer to the US system, to my understanding, rather than a massive blanket charge that was previously applied.)
Rolanda Clodfelder 05.12.2012	Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. This fee is on top of the already increased fee's that clubs will pay to publicly broadcast music which caused uproar earlier in the year with a moderate size club averaging a 200k "licence" cost per year. I believe this new "licence" cost is in leu of that fee being shot down somewhat. These agencies however IMHO should be government run as opposed to being allowed to operate as basically un-auditable and unanswerable to anyone apart from themselves. How are they going to police/monitor this exactly? They can pay lots of people to spot check venues with all the royalty fee's that will be paid to them - win win for GEMA... I wonder how much power the government are going to give them hmmmmmm. If a track gets played on a good radio station the artist will earn anywhere between
Tesha Freudenstein 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by thepanache GEMA are a royalty collector, similar to PRS in the UK. So hopefully this means dance music producers can actually earn some money from their tracks being broadcast in a public place? Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. However I don't understand the laptop surcharge.. that would be if the GEMA paid each of their members equaly but that's no the case. most small electronic music producers are, what they call "attached members", the lowest kind of membership in the GEMA but also the biggest in numbers (over 60000). the power and most of the money lies with the "regular members" and "extraordinary members" which in comparison make up a very small amount of all the members (around 3500). so chances are high that if you pay more money to the GEMA you are sponsering some guy from Modern Talking rather than your small time techno producer.
Valeri Holderness 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by thepanache GEMA are a royalty collector, similar to PRS in the UK. So hopefully this means dance music producers can actually earn some money from their tracks being broadcast in a public place? Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. However I don't understand the laptop surcharge.. i have a feeling that a lot of this money is going to get sucked into "administration costs" and the artists will see very little. These guys aren't doing this so they can help artists make more money, they're looking out for themselves.
Ashanti Andreacchio 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by thepanache GEMA are a royalty collector, similar to PRS in the UK. So hopefully this means dance music producers can actually earn some money from their tracks being broadcast in a public place? Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. However I don't understand the laptop surcharge.. I fear it could go the oposite way Clubs will close DJ will demand bigger pay from the clubs or not want to play. Less dance music being played so less money for the artists. because people don't listen so much to radio anymore and with no clubs to go to where are they to hear new music. It's ok that you have to pay to play music in public but it not ok that you pay the price of the track several times after a few gigs.
Syreeta Piela 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by deevey TBH if the price is 13c per track the money is not the thing that would bother me @ around 2.50 euro per hour (which could be factored into fee's anyhow) . Surely it cant be .13 cents a track, I believe that info must be wrong. From the article "Earlier this year we reported that Berlin clubs could face closure as soon as January 2013 because royalty fees were being raised to an extortionate degree by German organisation GEMA" No one would bat an eyelid at .13 cents a track, it has to be something REALLY high.. If a track gets played on a good radio station the artist will earn anywhere between
Random X 22.12.2012	Good to hear that it is off for at least another year. Maybe they will try to do this every year from now on?
Rey Holubar 22.12.2012	Good news! The wickedly stupid tariffs that were planned for 2013 have been stopped. Long live the clubs!!! Especially the ridiculous "PC" tariff has been dropped. Long live digital DJs! For those who can read German: http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...id_886375.html But, if you ask me, what is being done here is, "start your bid high". Make an offer that no one will accept, then the actual offer you get is more than if you had started with it to begin with and it then seems good as an alternative. The GEMA makes too much money as it is, for what it does and who it protects. They also kill musical freedoms instead of protecting them. So, yeah, great, the tariffs are off the table until 2014, but what then? The GEMA itself needs reform, but there is no one, who can get it done and who can even enforce a reform, unfortunately. scamo
Cole Maroto 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by Shishdisma I don't believe you understand how royalties work. Clubs all over have always had to pay track royalties per-play, and there are multiple collection agencies. (There are two operating in the US I believe, ASCAP and the other one I cant remember). Its just the fact that it's down to a relationship between the club ownership and the agency in question to figure out who owes what on a per-play basis. the other group you are believeing of is bmi and you are not entirely correct on how royalties are paid out from these 2 groups in the us. any venue that plays music buys a blanket license from both of these groups. the cost to the venue is dependent on several factors. in the case of live performances in clubs and other venues (or even restaurants playing cds and radio stations, etc) it's literally impossible to know all the songs that get played to pay royalties properly. only the top 200 highest grossing venues have to report their played songs. the rest of the money collected from blanket licenses get divided up by ascap and bmi as they see fit, not really the club owners outside of the top 200 (and not based on a per play situation)...which probably gives an advantage to the big artists that have a lot of plays elsewhere as they will see some of this money even if their song isn't played. http://musicians.about.com/od/publis...re-Tracked.htm http://musicians.about.com/od/publis...lties-Paid.htm http://musicians.about.com/od/publis...et-License.htm
Rey Holubar 05.12.2012	I have an issue with organizations like the GEMA, when they seem to become more than just a simple collection agency and get so full of shit, that it costs a ton of money to even run the organisation. I also have an issue, when they can arbitrarily raise fees to unreasonable amounts, with no controls and in the end, for what? Are those fees really fairly shared? There might be some song writer, who writes a ton of crappy songs, but is an extraordinary member of the GEMA and gets no play time for his songs...anywhere, but still gets a good chunk of money from the GEMA? Maybe I don't understand the process of the GEMA and maybe if I produced songs, I might believe differently, but actually, I don't believe so. Nope, there are many ways for people to make money with their works of art, if that is their goal. I really don't believe it should be up to a third party to determine who pays fees and who gets fees. Playing prerecorded music to a group of people is a form of advertisement, whether it be on a radio or in a club or during a "Volksfest". And it is a form of entertainment, for which, I hope, the music was made. Yeah, the clubs and radio stations and even "Volkfests" might be making money with that music, but does that really mean the people who created that music must also take part in that money making? By default? And collected through a third party? Bull shit. It is a legal mafia. scamo
Syreeta Piela 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by Era 7 that would be if the GEMA paid each of their members equaly but that's no the case. most small electronic music producers are, what they call "attached members", the lowest kind of membership in the GEMA but also the biggest in numbers (over 60000). the power and most of the money lies with the "regular members" and "extraordinary members" which in comparison make up a very small amount of all the members (around 3500). so chances are high that if you pay more money to the GEMA you are sponsering some guy from Modern Talking rather than your small time techno producer. Thanks @Era, seems almost ironic after the figures you mention with 'attached members' being the majority. But I guess I can only hope that the smaller, underground music producers could get their slice of the cake and a small return, considering how many clubs are operating, small producers could actually see some income from selling tracks! I'd be more than happy to hand in a tracklist at the end of every set to see this facilitated.
Nancey Inderlied 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by deevey I disagree Its a huge difference in the way things work for a large majority of DJ's, I for one do not keep set lists, I put a track in my deck and regularly will change my mind halfway though. If my mind is on writing stuff down or how much its gonna cost if i mix 3 tracks together instead of two, my mind is not focused on the job at hand. You dont have to do anything. It's the responsibility of the club's administration to work out who owes what, and the majority of the time, it's a rough estimate based on set times.
Rolanda Clodfelder 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by Shishdisma I don't believe you understand how royalties work. Clubs all over have always had to pay track royalties per-play Definetly not how its "always worked" perhaps in the USA, but I'm not familiar with that system. In Ireland for example the club/bar/premises would work out a license fee based on the # of feet though the door and size of venue rather than the sheer amount of tracks played. Originally Posted by Shishdisma This doesn't actually change the way things work, it's just that close to nobody understands how it actually works. This isn't a massive change in how DJs can work or how much DJs "pay," it's just a restructuring of how royalties are addressed (and actually closer to the US system, to my understanding, rather than a massive blanket charge that was previously applied.) I disagree Its a huge difference in the way things work for a large majority of DJ's, I for one do not keep set lists, I put a track in my deck and regularly will change my mind halfway though. If my mind is on writing stuff down or how much its gonna cost if i mix 3 tracks together instead of two, my mind is not focused on the job at hand.
Nancey Inderlied 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by deevey TBH if the price is 13c per track the money is not the thing that would bother me @ around 2.50 euro per hour (which could be factored into fee's anyhow) Moreso the issue I have is the administration, which essentially means your DJ set has to be orgainized like a radio station so they can break them down correctly. Now while that is not necessarily an issue for those on Traktor or VDJ perhaps most of the time I for one will let a track bleed on the fader slightly as a loop maybe, which WILL add to a the "played tracks" even if I were previewing. Now in Ableton it becomes more of an issue, where I would be playing samples etc .. unless there is some kind of cutt off point which says "song has been played" ... e.g. 90 seconds needs to be played before qualifying for payment. Hip Hop and button mashers no doubt would be more pissed - perhaps though we can get back to playing 5 whole minutes of a decent track rather than 5 bad tracks in one minute which IMHO is not necessarily a bad thing. Not an issue that effects me currently, but i'm watching it as other countries could/might easily follow suit if its uncontested in Germany. I don't believe you understand how royalties work. Clubs all over have always had to pay track royalties per-play, and there are multiple collection agencies. (There are two operating in the US I believe, ASCAP and the other one I cant remember). Its just the fact that it's down to a relationship between the club ownership and the agency in question to figure out who owes what on a per-play basis. This doesn't actually change the way things work, it's just that close to nobody understands how it actually works. This isn't a massive change in how DJs can work or how much DJs "pay," it's just a restructuring of how royalties are addressed (and actually closer to the US system, to my understanding, rather than a massive blanket charge that was previously applied.)
Rolanda Clodfelder 05.12.2012	Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. This fee is on top of the already increased fee's that clubs will pay to publicly broadcast music which caused uproar earlier in the year with a moderate size club averaging a 200k "licence" cost per year. I believe this new "licence" cost is in leu of that fee being shot down somewhat. These agencies however IMHO should be government run as opposed to being allowed to operate as basically un-auditable and unanswerable to anyone apart from themselves. How are they going to police/monitor this exactly? They can pay lots of people to spot check venues with all the royalty fee's that will be paid to them - win win for GEMA... I wonder how much power the government are going to give them hmmmmmm. If a track gets played on a good radio station the artist will earn anywhere between
Celine Surico 05.12.2012	The unknown story behind GEMA, BMI, ASCAP et rest is that the commissions are not paid per track, rather distributed based on the most common songs played out there. In other words, if you are Elton John, Lady Gaga, Journey, Abba et rest you get nice checks. If you are a very unknown producer that actually has the track played a lot, good luck getting any royalties. At least most national radio stations keep track of royalty payments per artist so that's one glimmer. This will not be fixed until the sorry saga about digital music tracking is solved. In other words, all music tracks should have a unique ID imprint either as part of the digital audio bits so you can't rip it out or otherwise marked. And SW will track what is played and report back. Doubt that will ever happen.
Tesha Freudenstein 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by thepanache GEMA are a royalty collector, similar to PRS in the UK. So hopefully this means dance music producers can actually earn some money from their tracks being broadcast in a public place? Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. However I don't understand the laptop surcharge.. that would be if the GEMA paid each of their members equaly but that's no the case. most small electronic music producers are, what they call "attached members", the lowest kind of membership in the GEMA but also the biggest in numbers (over 60000). the power and most of the money lies with the "regular members" and "extraordinary members" which in comparison make up a very small amount of all the members (around 3500). so chances are high that if you pay more money to the GEMA you are sponsering some guy from Modern Talking rather than your small time techno producer.
Valeri Holderness 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by thepanache GEMA are a royalty collector, similar to PRS in the UK. So hopefully this means dance music producers can actually earn some money from their tracks being broadcast in a public place? Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. However I don't understand the laptop surcharge.. i have a feeling that a lot of this money is going to get sucked into "administration costs" and the artists will see very little. These guys aren't doing this so they can help artists make more money, they're looking out for themselves.
Janyce Henningson 05.12.2012	How are they going to police/monitor this exactly?
Ashanti Andreacchio 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by thepanache GEMA are a royalty collector, similar to PRS in the UK. So hopefully this means dance music producers can actually earn some money from their tracks being broadcast in a public place? Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. However I don't understand the laptop surcharge.. I fear it could go the oposite way Clubs will close DJ will demand bigger pay from the clubs or not want to play. Less dance music being played so less money for the artists. because people don't listen so much to radio anymore and with no clubs to go to where are they to hear new music. It's ok that you have to pay to play music in public but it not ok that you pay the price of the track several times after a few gigs.
Syreeta Piela 05.12.2012	Originally Posted by deevey TBH if the price is 13c per track the money is not the thing that would bother me @ around 2.50 euro per hour (which could be factored into fee's anyhow) . Surely it cant be .13 cents a track, I believe that info must be wrong. From the article "Earlier this year we reported that Berlin clubs could face closure as soon as January 2013 because royalty fees were being raised to an extortionate degree by German organisation GEMA" No one would bat an eyelid at .13 cents a track, it has to be something REALLY high.. If a track gets played on a good radio station the artist will earn anywhere between
Syreeta Piela 05.12.2012	GEMA are a royalty collector, similar to PRS in the UK. So hopefully this means dance music producers can actually earn some money from their tracks being broadcast in a public place? Before you get pissed off about GEMA, believe about the artists that will benefit from this.. Also believe about how much you payed at the bar and on the door of the last club you went too.. However I don't understand the laptop surcharge..
Erich Vallabhaneni 05.12.2012	that's pretty shitty of them to do that. If you play your own productions do they pay you that much?
Rolanda Clodfelder 05.12.2012	TBH if the price is 13c per track the money is not the thing that would bother me @ around 2.50 euro per hour (which could be factored into fee's anyhow) Moreso the issue I have is the administration, which essentially means your DJ set has to be orgainized like a radio station so they can break them down correctly. Now while that is not necessarily an issue for those on Traktor or VDJ perhaps most of the time I for one will let a track bleed on the fader slightly as a loop maybe, which WILL add to a the "played tracks" even if I were previewing. Now in Ableton it becomes more of an issue, where I would be playing samples etc .. unless there is some kind of cutt off point which says "song has been played" ... e.g. 90 seconds needs to be played before qualifying for payment. Hip Hop and button mashers no doubt would be more pissed - perhaps though we can get back to playing 5 whole minutes of a decent track rather than 5 bad tracks in one minute which IMHO is not necessarily a bad thing. Not an issue that effects me currently, but i'm watching it as other countries could/might easily follow suit if its uncontested in Germany.
Rey Holubar 05.12.2012	It's a legal government backed Mafia. There is no better way I can describe the GEMA. scamo
Birgit Gondal 04.12.2012	it is pretty damn ridiculous, even with the tanith revelation! no way that this can go through at all
Matt Kane 04.12.2012	btw: this "battle" isn
Elsie Golis 04.12.2012	nvm I found the german article on tanithblog. 13 cents per song is ridiculous
Romelia Stankard 04.12.2012	Originally Posted by despo edit: damn, ninja'd by xone hey xone, can you perhaps explain to me in german, I'm not sure I'm getting what you mean not my comment, I don't speak german taken from here: http://www.reddit.com/r/DJs/comments...based_djs_and/
Elsie Golis 04.12.2012	so if I don't use a laptop I'm unaffected by this? I can pretty much dj on anything, laptop, vinyl, CDJs. So I could basically just burn all my stuff to cd and use the local CDJs without having to pay? where is the fucking logic in this? edit: damn, ninja'd by xone hey xone, can you perhaps explain to me in german, I'm not sure I'm getting what you mean
Romelia Stankard 04.12.2012	stealing a reddit comment on this, as it applies here as they just copied the fact article "This translation is garbage. They're actually removing the existing 30% flat surcharge and instead adding the per-track fee. Also this isn't about laptops, but rather sound files - so switching to a flash drive or whatever won't work. Furthermore the author seems to have no idea who Tanith is which discredits him even further. Yes, it's a huge problem, but also this article isn't even telling close to the full (or even real) story. FACT need to get their facts straight.source: I'm german."
Laurence Calisto 04.12.2012	that's... unreal? like i can't even respond intelligently my mind is just completely blown, i can't fathom what's being said there could possibly happen in the real world
Celine Surico 04.12.2012	They really like to kill the golden goose.

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