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So yeah... about those Behringer PA speakers

Home :: General Discussion :: So yeah... about those Behringer PA speakersReply

So yeah... about those Behringer PA speakers Posted on: 06.01.2013 by Darren Teboe I've never been a fan due to the companies past (both personal and second hand) reputation for putting out unreliable products. With that in mind, I saw a pair of them being brought into the venue I was at toevening and thought I would give them an honest listen with an open mind. Well... I'm still trying to figure out how much hearing damage those things gave me toevening . All I can say is that you guys who can't afford better speakers will be well served to save up and wait until you can afford better. These things are HARSH. Now the DJ could have done a better job tuning them in on the mixer (and eventually did), but even after the fact, these things just aren't in the same league as JBL or the same planet as QSC. The staff at this lounge has told me before how bad "those" speakers are, and never really known or cared about brands that some of these guys are using. Poking my head around, it ends up it's always the behringers they are speaking about. Yes, if you absolutely NEED to have speakers on the cheap and saving just isnt going to happen, then go for them. If you really want to go about presenting yourself as well as possible at every angle though, stay away from these speakers. You are going to come across as either having an underpowered rig, or one with harsh horrible sound that's just too loud.
Lela Umanskaya 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj I use Bill Fitzmaurice cabinets, specifically the DR200 and Titan 39. My DR's have a 16 element high frequency array (called the "melded array" in the plans). The baseline response before I apply the filtering previously described is flat from 40Hz to 20kHz. The correction I apply is to more closely mimic the "common" PA systems that are in use with a 2-way top with a mid-bass & compression driver...and the help limit the amount of content that is outside my own range of hearing. Interesting, I built a T30 but ultimately decided I was happier with my SRX subs. Still have not built a top but look forward to trying out something like an OT12 in the near future.
Layne Koop 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by sobi You can throw all the specs, measurments, and facts you want out there, but at the end of the day, 3 different DJ's with QSC and JBL tops which were "tossed on sticks" sounded worlds better than the two different brands of behringers that other dj's brought in. Argue it all you want, but you can't speak on something you aren't there for. This is like me telling you how the sound at your local bars are when I've never heard it. I was not there. As a result, my comments have been liberally qualified with terms like "in general." I did ask you for a more technical description of what you meant by "harsh." Can you please describe "worlds better" sound using some specs, measurements, or facts? "Confirmation bias" is a real thing. This is why objective terms are important. Often we "listen" to PA gear by first reading the label and forming an opinion from that point. It is certainly the case that I would expect better sound from QSC or JBL than Behringer. Given the differences in price point alone...such an expectation should be warranted. I can tell you that in general terms, DJs who start with entry level gear tend to make similar compromises everywhere in the signal chain....and DJs who opt for better quality gear tend to do so evenly across the full signal chain. I also have found that DJs who invest $$$$$ in their gear tend to take the time to find out how to actually use that gear to best advantage. I can tell you from experience that at moderate SPL, Behringer and QSC and JBL and Mackie and Peavey and Klipsch cabinets can all be tuned to provide a "transparent" sound reproduction platform.
Darren Teboe 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj Ironically, when spending $$,$$$ for a PA system, people are FAR more likely to pay for "professional" design and installation. When buying "cheap" speakers, people are FAR more likely to toss them on sticks and then complain when the sound isn't what they expected. The latter appears to be the case with the managers in this venue. You can throw all the specs, measurments, and facts you want out there, but at the end of the day, 3 different DJ's with QSC and JBL tops which were "tossed on sticks" sounded worlds better than the two different brands of behringers that other dj's brought in. Argue it all you want, but you can't speak on something you aren't there for. This is like me telling you how the sound at your local bars are when I've never heard it.
Darren Teboe 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by HighTopFade Maybe they were pushed to the max, started to heat up, and sound shitty. I imagine it happens a lot with powered tops without subs. nope... this was right at the start of the evening and for the next couple of hours.
Layne Koop 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by rotebass There is the problem with subjective terms, we seem to be implying two separate conditions by the same term. If I read you right, you are saying that any speaker that has an imbalance between the mid and hi passbands would qualify as harsh? This is why I attempted to provide a description of what I have typically heard called "harsh". What I am saying is that "harsh" typically refers to a "large" imbalance in which the high frequency content far exceeds the mid-bass content. The problem is particularly noticeable during peaks in the music, and is exacerbated by running PA systems to the limits of their SPL production capability. As the SPL increases, the Equal Loudness Curves change shape, and the apparent balance between the mid and high frequency content is altered. This change in perception with increasing SPL is particularly problematic for high frequency content, as the curve is anything but flat. In most entry level cabinets, the issue is commonly caused by a (relatively) poor response from the mid-bass, rather than an aggressive response from the compression driver. Originally Posted by rotebass What system are you running by the way? I know the processing for our JBL rig contains some cuts in the HF range to tame some response peaks, nothing as drastic as a you describe though. Your system must have some truly impressive HF output ability. I use Bill Fitzmaurice cabinets, specifically the DR200 and Titan 39. My DR's have a 16 element high frequency array (called the "melded array" in the plans). The baseline response before I apply the filtering previously described is flat from 40Hz to 20kHz. The correction I apply is to more closely mimic the "common" PA systems that are in use with a 2-way top with a mid-bass & compression driver...and the help limit the amount of content that is outside my own range of hearing.
Lela Umanskaya 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj That is a great example of a specific, measurable, and actionable description of a PA system behavior. It is however not the most common definition of "harsh" that I have encountered over the years. In general, "harsh" most typically refers to high frequency content that is overpowering the mid bass frequencies, particularly on peaks. Distortion is simply described as "distortion." In the case of the crossover range from the mid-bass driver to the high frequency element, that can be the result of phase issues, delay from cabinet design, poor crossover design, or a host of other causes. My system has a reasonably flat response >8kHz...but to help prevent a harsh response, I add a -6dB/oct slope above 8kHz, and a low pass filter at 18kHz. Bear in mind that most entry to mid-level "two-way" tops with a compression driver tend to roll off aggressively by about 16kHz anyway. Measurements of human hearing at high frequencies is iffy. The Equal Loudness Contours vary widely at >10kHz frequencies...and that as people age, high frequency hearing is among the first to degrade. Personally, I have zero residual hearing above 15kHz...so a big part of the reason I do this is to help limit the amount of content coming from the system that I simply can not hear. There is the problem with subjective terms, we seem to be implying two separate conditions by the same term. If I read you right, you are saying that any speaker that has an imbalance between the mid and hi passbands would qualify as harsh? What system are you running by the way? I know the processing for our JBL rig contains some cuts in the HF range to tame some response peaks, nothing as drastic as a you describe though. Your system must have some truly impressive HF output ability.
Layne Koop 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by sobi Don't doubt they are great speakers. My experience out in a live environment and not playing but just being a patron has be abysmal. This isn't so much to defend or offend as much as it is about how some loud tops with no sub made my ears hurt... and the managers not be very happy with the sound either. I did not say "great"...I said "entry level AT BEST." The Behringer cabinets do meet the "minimum" to be considers as "pro level" gear...but only just. Such hyperbole is one of the larger problems with discussions of PA gear, IMO. Many people "assume" that cabinets can be plugged together with little to no forethought and produce "great" sound. Such is not the case. There are no cabinets that work well in a specific room without some processing or forethought. None. Not even Funktion One can be placed into any arbitrary space and be expected to show off their full capabilities. Ironically, when spending $$,$$$ for a PA system, people are FAR more likely to pay for "professional" design and installation. When buying "cheap" speakers, people are FAR more likely to toss them on sticks and then complain when the sound isn't what they expected. The latter appears to be the case with the managers in this venue. Originally Posted by rotebass Harsh to me is distorsion in the 1.2-2KHz range That is a great example of a specific, measurable, and actionable description of a PA system behavior. It is however not the most common definition of "harsh" that I have encountered over the years. In general, "harsh" most typically refers to high frequency content that is overpowering the mid bass frequencies, particularly on peaks. Distortion is simply described as "distortion." In the case of the crossover range from the mid-bass driver to the high frequency element, that can be the result of phase issues, delay from cabinet design, poor crossover design, or a host of other causes. My system has a reasonably flat response >8kHz...but to help prevent a harsh response, I add a -6dB/oct slope above 8kHz, and a low pass filter at 18kHz. Bear in mind that most entry to mid-level "two-way" tops with a compression driver tend to roll off aggressively by about 16kHz anyway. Measurements of human hearing at high frequencies is iffy. The Equal Loudness Contours vary widely at >10kHz frequencies...and that as people age, high frequency hearing is among the first to degrade. Personally, I have zero residual hearing above 15kHz...so a big part of the reason I do this is to help limit the amount of content coming from the system that I simply can not hear.
Rena Estabrook 10.01.2013	Just got two B1500D Powered Subs. Very solid build quality. Knobs and switches feel firm. Sounds tight and clean with Mackie Thump 15s. Weighs a ton though. My biggest complaint would be Behringer's packaging. Since these speakers are usually drop shipped, they really should use better foam and thicker stronger boxes.
Tatum Ansaldo 07.01.2013
Rena Estabrook 07.01.2013	All very good insight.
Lela Umanskaya 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj I use Bill Fitzmaurice cabinets, specifically the DR200 and Titan 39. My DR's have a 16 element high frequency array (called the "melded array" in the plans). The baseline response before I apply the filtering previously described is flat from 40Hz to 20kHz. The correction I apply is to more closely mimic the "common" PA systems that are in use with a 2-way top with a mid-bass & compression driver...and the help limit the amount of content that is outside my own range of hearing. Interesting, I built a T30 but ultimately decided I was happier with my SRX subs. Still have not built a top but look forward to trying out something like an OT12 in the near future.
Layne Koop 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by sobi You can throw all the specs, measurments, and facts you want out there, but at the end of the day, 3 different DJ's with QSC and JBL tops which were "tossed on sticks" sounded worlds better than the two different brands of behringers that other dj's brought in. Argue it all you want, but you can't speak on something you aren't there for. This is like me telling you how the sound at your local bars are when I've never heard it. I was not there. As a result, my comments have been liberally qualified with terms like "in general." I did ask you for a more technical description of what you meant by "harsh." Can you please describe "worlds better" sound using some specs, measurements, or facts? "Confirmation bias" is a real thing. This is why objective terms are important. Often we "listen" to PA gear by first reading the label and forming an opinion from that point. It is certainly the case that I would expect better sound from QSC or JBL than Behringer. Given the differences in price point alone...such an expectation should be warranted. I can tell you that in general terms, DJs who start with entry level gear tend to make similar compromises everywhere in the signal chain....and DJs who opt for better quality gear tend to do so evenly across the full signal chain. I also have found that DJs who invest $$$$$ in their gear tend to take the time to find out how to actually use that gear to best advantage. I can tell you from experience that at moderate SPL, Behringer and QSC and JBL and Mackie and Peavey and Klipsch cabinets can all be tuned to provide a "transparent" sound reproduction platform.
Darren Teboe 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj Ironically, when spending $$,$$$ for a PA system, people are FAR more likely to pay for "professional" design and installation. When buying "cheap" speakers, people are FAR more likely to toss them on sticks and then complain when the sound isn't what they expected. The latter appears to be the case with the managers in this venue. You can throw all the specs, measurments, and facts you want out there, but at the end of the day, 3 different DJ's with QSC and JBL tops which were "tossed on sticks" sounded worlds better than the two different brands of behringers that other dj's brought in. Argue it all you want, but you can't speak on something you aren't there for. This is like me telling you how the sound at your local bars are when I've never heard it.
Darren Teboe 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by HighTopFade Maybe they were pushed to the max, started to heat up, and sound shitty. I imagine it happens a lot with powered tops without subs. nope... this was right at the start of the evening and for the next couple of hours.
Layne Koop 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by rotebass There is the problem with subjective terms, we seem to be implying two separate conditions by the same term. If I read you right, you are saying that any speaker that has an imbalance between the mid and hi passbands would qualify as harsh? This is why I attempted to provide a description of what I have typically heard called "harsh". What I am saying is that "harsh" typically refers to a "large" imbalance in which the high frequency content far exceeds the mid-bass content. The problem is particularly noticeable during peaks in the music, and is exacerbated by running PA systems to the limits of their SPL production capability. As the SPL increases, the Equal Loudness Curves change shape, and the apparent balance between the mid and high frequency content is altered. This change in perception with increasing SPL is particularly problematic for high frequency content, as the curve is anything but flat. In most entry level cabinets, the issue is commonly caused by a (relatively) poor response from the mid-bass, rather than an aggressive response from the compression driver. Originally Posted by rotebass What system are you running by the way? I know the processing for our JBL rig contains some cuts in the HF range to tame some response peaks, nothing as drastic as a you describe though. Your system must have some truly impressive HF output ability. I use Bill Fitzmaurice cabinets, specifically the DR200 and Titan 39. My DR's have a 16 element high frequency array (called the "melded array" in the plans). The baseline response before I apply the filtering previously described is flat from 40Hz to 20kHz. The correction I apply is to more closely mimic the "common" PA systems that are in use with a 2-way top with a mid-bass & compression driver...and the help limit the amount of content that is outside my own range of hearing.
Random X 07.01.2013	Made subtle change to topic title.
Random X 07.01.2013	Ah, it's the PA speakers.
Lela Umanskaya 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by soundinmotiondj That is a great example of a specific, measurable, and actionable description of a PA system behavior. It is however not the most common definition of "harsh" that I have encountered over the years. In general, "harsh" most typically refers to high frequency content that is overpowering the mid bass frequencies, particularly on peaks. Distortion is simply described as "distortion." In the case of the crossover range from the mid-bass driver to the high frequency element, that can be the result of phase issues, delay from cabinet design, poor crossover design, or a host of other causes. My system has a reasonably flat response >8kHz...but to help prevent a harsh response, I add a -6dB/oct slope above 8kHz, and a low pass filter at 18kHz. Bear in mind that most entry to mid-level "two-way" tops with a compression driver tend to roll off aggressively by about 16kHz anyway. Measurements of human hearing at high frequencies is iffy. The Equal Loudness Contours vary widely at >10kHz frequencies...and that as people age, high frequency hearing is among the first to degrade. Personally, I have zero residual hearing above 15kHz...so a big part of the reason I do this is to help limit the amount of content coming from the system that I simply can not hear. There is the problem with subjective terms, we seem to be implying two separate conditions by the same term. If I read you right, you are saying that any speaker that has an imbalance between the mid and hi passbands would qualify as harsh? What system are you running by the way? I know the processing for our JBL rig contains some cuts in the HF range to tame some response peaks, nothing as drastic as a you describe though. Your system must have some truly impressive HF output ability.
Romelia Stankard 07.01.2013	Yeah I had a b212a as a backup/monitor a while back, thing sounded very boomy with grating highs under all circumstances.
Layne Koop 07.01.2013	Originally Posted by sobi Don't doubt they are great speakers. My experience out in a live environment and not playing but just being a patron has be abysmal. This isn't so much to defend or offend as much as it is about how some loud tops with no sub made my ears hurt... and the managers not be very happy with the sound either. I did not say "great"...I said "entry level AT BEST." The Behringer cabinets do meet the "minimum" to be considers as "pro level" gear...but only just. Such hyperbole is one of the larger problems with discussions of PA gear, IMO. Many people "assume" that cabinets can be plugged together with little to no forethought and produce "great" sound. Such is not the case. There are no cabinets that work well in a specific room without some processing or forethought. None. Not even Funktion One can be placed into any arbitrary space and be expected to show off their full capabilities. Ironically, when spending $$,$$$ for a PA system, people are FAR more likely to pay for "professional" design and installation. When buying "cheap" speakers, people are FAR more likely to toss them on sticks and then complain when the sound isn't what they expected. The latter appears to be the case with the managers in this venue. Originally Posted by rotebass Harsh to me is distorsion in the 1.2-2KHz range That is a great example of a specific, measurable, and actionable description of a PA system behavior. It is however not the most common definition of "harsh" that I have encountered over the years. In general, "harsh" most typically refers to high frequency content that is overpowering the mid bass frequencies, particularly on peaks. Distortion is simply described as "distortion." In the case of the crossover range from the mid-bass driver to the high frequency element, that can be the result of phase issues, delay from cabinet design, poor crossover design, or a host of other causes. My system has a reasonably flat response >8kHz...but to help prevent a harsh response, I add a -6dB/oct slope above 8kHz, and a low pass filter at 18kHz. Bear in mind that most entry to mid-level "two-way" tops with a compression driver tend to roll off aggressively by about 16kHz anyway. Measurements of human hearing at high frequencies is iffy. The Equal Loudness Contours vary widely at >10kHz frequencies...and that as people age, high frequency hearing is among the first to degrade. Personally, I have zero residual hearing above 15kHz...so a big part of the reason I do this is to help limit the amount of content coming from the system that I simply can not hear.
Lela Umanskaya 07.01.2013	Harsh to me is distorsion in the 1.2-2KHz range, I'm not sure where Behringer crosses the woofer to the HF driver, but if it is anywhere in this range (which it likely is) then it wouldn't be a stretch that these speakers would take on a harsh quality when pushed past their design limitations. FWIW, I'd still take them over the 100 level JBL gear, 500 series and up is another story.
Rena Estabrook 07.01.2013	Maybe they were pushed to the max, started to heat up, and sound shitty. I imagine it happens a lot with powered tops without subs.
Darren Teboe 07.01.2013	Don't doubt they are great speakers. My experience out in a live environment and not playing but just being a patron has be abysmal. This isn't so much to defend or offend as much as it is about how some loud tops with no sub made my ears hurt... and the managers not be very happy with the sound either.
Layne Koop 06.01.2013	Originally Posted by sobi These things are HARSH. Now the DJ could have done a better job tuning them in on the mixer (and eventually did), but even after the fact, these things just aren't in the same league as JBL or the same planet as QSC. The staff at this lounge has told me before how bad "those" speakers are, and never really known or cared about brands that some of these guys are using. Poking my head around, it ends up it's always the behringers they are speaking about. "Harsh" is one of those "squishy" words used to describe sound. Can you be more specific about what you were (or were not) hearing? In general terms, every speaker cabinet can benefit from audio processing (including JBL and QSC). The 3 or 4 band EQ on a mixer is NOT sufficient. A 31-band EQ is the industry standard for tuning a PA system. Using even moderate EQ, it should be possible to get a "flat response" within 1dB for any reasonable cabinet. Behringer cabinets are entry level AT BEST...but they can be tuned to be "flat" with no more than 3-4dB of correction on any channel...and are suitable for moderate SPL sound reinforcement (with processing...of course).
Klara Kinnebrew 06.01.2013	I have been looking into a new PA recently too and also read NOTHING but good on the eurolive line. They are reccomended by the editors on several DJ blogs....
Grace Gatica 06.01.2013	Originally Posted by HighTopFade I watched this review and decided to give a pair of 15" subs a chance. Plus the 3 year warranty. I'll find out next week. http://www.djbooth.net/index/dj-equi...ger-b1500d-pro exactly this, ive heard nothing but good about them for their price and quality.
Rena Estabrook 06.01.2013	I watched this review and decided to give a pair of 15" subs a chance. Plus the 3 year warranty. I'll find out next week. http://www.djbooth.net/index/dj-equi...ger-b1500d-pro
Darren Teboe 06.01.2013	It was those, but the 12" versions. Also heard the 212's a few months back, but I figured maybe it was just a fluke. These things are HARSH! lol.
Grace Gatica 06.01.2013	what model specifically are you speaking of? ive heard the eurolive 315d aernt bad at all

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So yeah... about those Behringer PA speakers