Needle Question Ok so i just got my first set of vinyl turntables after being at it for about a year and a half now, and i have a question about needles/carts sorry if its a stupid question. Whats the diffrence in a OM Needle and just a "regular" needle? \
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/ORTOFON-CONCORDE-NIGHT-CLUB-KIT/dp/B00164EUVE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1326839809&sr=8-3"]Amazon.com: ORTOFON CONCORDE NIGHT CLUB 2 KIT: Musical Instruments@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41qONCJ2CqL.@@AMEPARAM@@41qONCJ2CqL[/ame]
vs
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Ortofon-OM-Nightclub-Turntable-Cartridge/dp/B000T9K6AQ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1326839809&sr=8-8"]Amazon.com: Ortofon OM Nightclub II Single Turntable Cartridge: Musical Instruments@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419uJo36oxL.@@AMEPARAM@@419uJo36oxL[/ame]
thanks |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Dorie Scelzo
19.01.2012 | OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
Originally Posted by Otacon
overhang gauge?
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Originally Posted by icb
Is it really necessary? Can I mount M44-7 without any gauge or alignement protectors ?
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Danae Dumler
20.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by Otacon
oh shit i feel like a fool now, i was believeing the one on the Shure site was for one. lol my bad
it's the same product; the "list" price is bogus, noone ever pays that much for it. That said, the amazon price is damn good for that; I've seen them normally go for about 90-110 pre-mounted like that. When I bought my carts they were about $70 without the headshells. That was like 2000 though.
Oh and pre-mounted means you don't have to deal with protractors or plastic bits unless you want to check their work; not to mention no squinting at wire connectors. But yeah you only have to do it once; I haven't messed with them since 2000 other than to change the tips. (Which runs about $30 each btw). |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Dorie Scelzo
19.01.2012 | OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
Originally Posted by Otacon
overhang gauge?
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Originally Posted by icb
Is it really necessary? Can I mount M44-7 without any gauge or alignement protectors ?
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by djproben
You may still have the overhang gauge; it's a white plastic thing that looks like it was meant to hold your headshell in place. It's not as complex as it sounds. The printed protractors work too.
But to answer your question, no you don't need to do any of this stuff, and you probably won't notice much difference. But it's worth at least trying to get it in the right place because over time record wear does increase. M44-7s cut through a lot; they are not like more "audiophile" carts. I have Shure M97xes and you can tell right away if the cart is misaligned; the difference is very noticeable and it sounds bad. Whereas the M447s are pretty forgiving and will probably sound fine either way, unless you have it drastically misaligned.
I bought my Technics 1210 mk2 second hand and didn't get overhang gauge for sure.
Can you help me with printed protractors, which one do I need particulary for 1210mk2 and m44-7 (or m35x in case I go for that) ? |
Tamekia Piraino
18.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by Otacon
Word, well put and thanks for the info. When i order my needles ill get a technic overhang gauge
You can just print some out.
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...tractors.shtml |
Ngan Ernestine
18.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by icb
Is it really necessary? Can I mount M44-7 without any gauge or alignement protectors ?
Just screw it onto the headshell and connect the wires ?
record wear increases and sound quality deteriorates with the tracking-angle error. i mean, scratch DJs are probably doing many things anyway that are neither good for your records nor for the fidelity of the audio. so why would you bother about tracking-angle errors?
but for me personally (i don't scratch), i believe the gauge is worth it. if you don't get it, at least try to make sure that the distance between the plug of the headshell and the stylus tip is close to 52mm. also, if you imagine a straight line between the two headshell mounting screws, that line should be perpendicular to the headshell. |
Danae Dumler
20.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by Otacon
oh shit i feel like a fool now, i was believeing the one on the Shure site was for one. lol my bad
it's the same product; the "list" price is bogus, noone ever pays that much for it. That said, the amazon price is damn good for that; I've seen them normally go for about 90-110 pre-mounted like that. When I bought my carts they were about $70 without the headshells. That was like 2000 though.
Oh and pre-mounted means you don't have to deal with protractors or plastic bits unless you want to check their work; not to mention no squinting at wire connectors. But yeah you only have to do it once; I haven't messed with them since 2000 other than to change the tips. (Which runs about $30 each btw). |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by mostapha
OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Erich Vallabhaneni
19.01.2012 | oh shit i feel like a fool now, i was believeing the one on the Shure site was for one. lol my bad |
Dorie Scelzo
19.01.2012 | Price difference between what? That's only one product. |
Erich Vallabhaneni
19.01.2012 | Figured id post this for the Shure fans, and is there a reason theres such a freakin huge price diffrence? literally 50%
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Shure-M44-7H-Scratch-Cartridge-Headshell/dp/B0002E2LZG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1326999732&sr=8-2"]Amazon.com: Shure M44-7H Scratch Cartridge with Headshell: Musical Instruments@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41LtU-IoCOL.@@AMEPARAM@@41LtU-IoCOL[/ame]
http://shop-us.shure.com/products/pr...7.0.0.0?pp=12& |
Erich Vallabhaneni
19.01.2012 | Yeah im in between Shure M44-7H's and Ortofon Digitrack/Nightclub II OMs, but i believe ill just buy the 5 dollar gauge just in case i ever need it. Thanks alot for the info |
Dorie Scelzo
19.01.2012 | OP's original question: OM vs. Concorde. If you want Ortofon (which I don't like compared to Shure), I recommend the OM versions. Headshells (even the cheap Stanton ones) are better built than Concordes.
I have never seen a Concorde that wasn't broken unless it was still in a shop being sold. The arms are really fragile. Headshells are built better.
So are Shure Whitelabels, which sound better than anything Ortofon that I've heard and have cheaper replacement styli.
I'd still recommend anything Shure over anything Ortofon if the prices are even close to comparable, but if you're going Ortofon, Concordes aren't worth it.
Originally Posted by Otacon
overhang gauge?
It's a plastic thing. Just order one and use it. It takes like 5 minutes.
Originally Posted by icb
Is it really necessary? Can I mount M44-7 without any gauge or alignement protectors ?
Yeah. But vinyl already sounds bad enough, there's no reason to make it worse just out of laziness.
Seriously |
Tamekia Piraino
19.01.2012 | In that link I posted scroll down until you see the Technics Arc protractor. I believe that you have to register before you can download.
I found out about using the protractors a few years ago, but I never felt the need to actually do it. I always thought that it was something that the audiophiles did. |
Sherry Nyblom
19.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by djproben
You may still have the overhang gauge; it's a white plastic thing that looks like it was meant to hold your headshell in place. It's not as complex as it sounds. The printed protractors work too.
But to answer your question, no you don't need to do any of this stuff, and you probably won't notice much difference. But it's worth at least trying to get it in the right place because over time record wear does increase. M44-7s cut through a lot; they are not like more "audiophile" carts. I have Shure M97xes and you can tell right away if the cart is misaligned; the difference is very noticeable and it sounds bad. Whereas the M447s are pretty forgiving and will probably sound fine either way, unless you have it drastically misaligned.
I bought my Technics 1210 mk2 second hand and didn't get overhang gauge for sure.
Can you help me with printed protractors, which one do I need particulary for 1210mk2 and m44-7 (or m35x in case I go for that) ? |
Danae Dumler
19.01.2012 | You may still have the overhang gauge; it's a white plastic thing that looks like it was meant to hold your headshell in place. It's not as complex as it sounds. The printed protractors work too.
But to answer your question, no you don't need to do any of this stuff, and you probably won't notice much difference. But it's worth at least trying to get it in the right place because over time record wear does increase. M44-7s cut through a lot; they are not like more "audiophile" carts. I have Shure M97xes and you can tell right away if the cart is misaligned; the difference is very noticeable and it sounds bad. Whereas the M447s are pretty forgiving and will probably sound fine either way, unless you have it drastically misaligned. |
Tamekia Piraino
18.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by Otacon
Word, well put and thanks for the info. When i order my needles ill get a technic overhang gauge
You can just print some out.
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge...tractors.shtml |
Erich Vallabhaneni
18.01.2012 | Word, well put and thanks for the info. When i order my needles ill get a technic overhang gauge |
Ngan Ernestine
18.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by icb
Is it really necessary? Can I mount M44-7 without any gauge or alignement protectors ?
Just screw it onto the headshell and connect the wires ?
record wear increases and sound quality deteriorates with the tracking-angle error. i mean, scratch DJs are probably doing many things anyway that are neither good for your records nor for the fidelity of the audio. so why would you bother about tracking-angle errors?
but for me personally (i don't scratch), i believe the gauge is worth it. if you don't get it, at least try to make sure that the distance between the plug of the headshell and the stylus tip is close to 52mm. also, if you imagine a straight line between the two headshell mounting screws, that line should be perpendicular to the headshell. |
Sherry Nyblom
18.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by rgtb
guys, the technics overhang gauge is included with newly-purchased technics 1200s. it is used to make sure that the cart (and hence the stylus) is positioned such as to minimize tracking-angle errors. this is not necessary on a concorde cart, as those have a fixed stylus position relative to the tonearm. (ortofon designed the concordes such that the stylus position is best for 1200s.)
you can purchase a new technics overhang gauge for $5 or so at places that sell replacement parts for technics.
as an alternative to the technics overhang gauge, cartridge alinment protractors can be used. these are essentially calibers or stencils. (sorry my english isn't perfect--i'm looking for the correct english word.) note that these protractors are tonearm-specific. ortofon and other companies manufacture protractors appropriate for technics tonearms. they go for ~$10.
Is it really necessary? Can I mount M44-7 without any gauge or alignement protectors ?
Just screw it onto the headshell and connect the wires ? |
Ngan Ernestine
18.01.2012 | guys, the technics overhang gauge is included with newly-purchased technics 1200s. it is used to make sure that the cart (and hence the stylus) is positioned such as to minimize tracking-angle errors. this is not necessary on a concorde cart, as those have a fixed stylus position relative to the tonearm. (ortofon designed the concordes such that the stylus position is best for 1200s.)
you can purchase a new technics overhang gauge for $5 or so at places that sell replacement parts for technics.
as an alternative to the technics overhang gauge, cartridge alinment protractors can be used. these are essentially calibers or stencils. (sorry my english isn't perfect--i'm looking for the correct english word.) note that these protractors are tonearm-specific. ortofon and other companies manufacture protractors appropriate for technics tonearms. they go for ~$10. |
Sherry Nyblom
18.01.2012 |
Originally Posted by rgtb
it's also worth pointing out that the OM version of a cartridge is going to be cheaper than the respective concorde variant.
the concordes have two advantages: (i) they install faster and easier; (ii) it is pretty much impossible to mount a concorde the wrong way, whereas some will install an OM (or other headshell-mounted cart) incorrectly. not that it's hard but, for headshell-mounted carts, you'll need to use the technics overhang gauge or a cartridge alignment protractor.
khm. I only used Concordes until now, but now I'm gonna go for some cartridges that need mounting on headshell (prolly m44-7 or m35x). I have never mounted it and I certainly don't have 'overhang gauge' or anything similar so will I screw up my cartridge (or headshell) or can I do it without ?
Help is appreciated. |
Erich Vallabhaneni
18.01.2012 | Yeah I noticed the price difference that's why i came to the pros for knowledge. Whoa, that last part kinda blew my mind...overhang gauge? I'm using a pair of Technic 1210's |
Ngan Ernestine
18.01.2012 | it's also worth pointing out that the OM version of a cartridge is going to be cheaper than the respective concorde variant.
the concordes have two advantages: (i) they install faster and easier; (ii) it is pretty much impossible to mount a concorde the wrong way, whereas some will install an OM (or other headshell-mounted cart) incorrectly. not that it's hard but, for headshell-mounted carts, you'll need to use the technics overhang gauge or a cartridge alignment protractor. |
Erich Vallabhaneni
18.01.2012 | this is exactly what i needed to know, thanks a ton guys! |
Brendan Kerkvliet
17.01.2012 | Nevermind. You beat me. |
Danae Dumler
17.01.2012 | more info from Ortofon: http://www.ortofon-dj.com/en/faq
1.5. Is there a difference between the OM and Concorde series of cartridge?
The sole difference between OM and Concorde cartridges is the housing and contacts found on the cartridge. Whereas the OM range requires mounting onto an appropriate headshell, the Concorde range conveniently attaches directly to the tonearm. There is no difference in sound between the two ranges, within the respective series of cartridge (ie OM Elektro versus Concorde Elektro, etc). |
Danae Dumler
17.01.2012 | From the looks of those two pages, the OM is not installed on a headshell, so you'll need to do that yourself, while the others are on "Concorde" style headshells (which I personally detest but a lot of people dig them). Also, the OM is only a single cart whereas the others are for a pair, but you probably already knew that. |
