Shure M44-7H vs Ortofon Nightclub Concorde
Shure M44-7H vs Ortofon Nightclub Concorde Posted on: 12.12.2012 by Evie Baghdasarian So I will be getting myself a set of 1200's after chrsitmas and want to get a fresh set of needles and carts. The ones I've mentioned seem to be the major players, now what I'm wondering is if anyone can make a solid argument to justify spending an extra $100 on the Ortofon's. Or if there is anything else I should consider? Thanks. | |
| Bryon Niccoli 26.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by djproben
The reason I want to do this is because I want to archive all my records, and also because I want to sample records so I can use them in my own productions (after all, why go through a computer file of 1000's of snares and kicks when I can just sample that epic drum sound in that white label that I've had for years. That's how it was done in the past and it appeals to me. So... with all these considerations, is it possible to buy this type of cartridge/stylus which also has a built in headshell, as I have tried to attach cartridges to the technics headshell before and gave it up after an hour as too complicated. The reason I'm asking all this is because if you look at the stylus retailers online they make little effort to explain what differentiates one brand from another. Edit: Not sure if this is relevant but most of the records I will be sampling will be 80's-90's House, 90's jungle, Dubstep- ie. intricate drum patterns with swing and often bass heavy production, rather than trance or pop music. |
| Danae Dumler 22.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by HigherFi
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| Lilliana Perris 22.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by djproben
I don't use regular vinyl, just Timecode however. Also don't actually play out with the Timecodes unless doing a show, so they dont get used daily or even weekly. Just the odd bit of scratching as a 3rd deck. So they good for me I rate, but good advice and knowledge there for those using regular vinyls etc. I will only use the Scratch for scratching tho. Playing normally I will prolly use the Electro's. Will keep my eye on em tho! |
| Evie Baghdasarian 20.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Tornesoul
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| Precious Pequignot 20.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jayo
whats ur settings for the cart/tonearm? |
| Bryon Niccoli 26.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by djproben
The reason I want to do this is because I want to archive all my records, and also because I want to sample records so I can use them in my own productions (after all, why go through a computer file of 1000's of snares and kicks when I can just sample that epic drum sound in that white label that I've had for years. That's how it was done in the past and it appeals to me. So... with all these considerations, is it possible to buy this type of cartridge/stylus which also has a built in headshell, as I have tried to attach cartridges to the technics headshell before and gave it up after an hour as too complicated. The reason I'm asking all this is because if you look at the stylus retailers online they make little effort to explain what differentiates one brand from another. Edit: Not sure if this is relevant but most of the records I will be sampling will be 80's-90's House, 90's jungle, Dubstep- ie. intricate drum patterns with swing and often bass heavy production, rather than trance or pop music. |
| Shan Bauerly 25.01.2013 | Yep, the 44-7 is absolutely bass-heavy for analog playback. Mine only see timecodes. |
| Delila Vandommelen 25.01.2013 | Scope is getting a little fuzzy and warbled on my mk1 records, but TSP's still happy enough with that it keeps on tracking fine - meter is still all the way up. Scratches though, not so much. That's my only issue with these ! (my records are some of the cleanest I've seen in a booth) That's using CC PRO (grey). I also play straight vinyl, if anything else at all these days and the cue burn, while a reality, is not prominent since I don't dig it in like some do when cueing, setup the tonearm just right (TT health providing) and clean everything very frequently. Just got some fresh CC Elektro needles that I put on them and the high end is a bit clearer - there is very little difference between a purchased WAV and a fresh vinyl copy of the same tune, less so than with the PRO needles. I like my high-end to be clean and audible if I can have it and the run-of-the-mill Shure feel a little muffled to me for that. |
| Lilliana Perris 23.01.2013 | Yeah, I have 2 pairs of TC, which I rotate often. My biggest issue is dirt and dust. |
| Danae Dumler 22.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by HigherFi
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| Shan Bauerly 22.01.2013 | I disagree, respectfully. Timecode is rather fussy about its signal. While audio quality of the cartridge (bass heavy, etc) is of no consequence, it is important that the smpte get through as clean as possible, if you want it to track tightly. |
| Danae Dumler 22.01.2013 | Well with timecode it's probably a non-issue; I'm pretty sure the software can pick up the timecode signal even with significant record wear. |
| Lilliana Perris 22.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by djproben
I don't use regular vinyl, just Timecode however. Also don't actually play out with the Timecodes unless doing a show, so they dont get used daily or even weekly. Just the odd bit of scratching as a 3rd deck. So they good for me I rate, but good advice and knowledge there for those using regular vinyls etc. I will only use the Scratch for scratching tho. Playing normally I will prolly use the Electro's. Will keep my eye on em tho! |
| Danae Dumler 21.01.2013 | sarasin are those the pink ones? I have a pair of those that I bought years ago. They sound fantastic but they definitely cause more record wear than the shures. I noticed it immediately when back cueing and scratching with a really old (and thin) record; even a couple times back and forth with the stylus and I noticed more pops and fuzz. So keep an eye on things if you make that your standard cart. (Oh yeah I should add that mine were not Concorde style, if it makes a difference) |
| Lilliana Perris 21.01.2013 | I recently got the Ortofon Concorde Scratches and they are really really cool. Compared to the Ortofon Concorde Electro's that I also have, the Scratch skips much less. Haven't been able to get it to skip yet actually. Never used the M44-7's, so no comment there. |
| Tomiko Schellenberger 20.01.2013 | I recently bought some M44-7's and I find them great, very durable, relatively cheap and the little flip down plastic styli protector is great for that extra bit of protection. Agreed about dust accumulation though I used to have stanton 680v3 hp's and they gathered much less dust, but they aren't good for scratching IMO. |
| Dorie Scelzo 20.01.2013 | Set them as per the instructions and everything is fine, with two exceptions. 1 - You should use as little tracking force as you can get away with. IME, the "recommended maximum" is more than enough. Don't do anything dumb like adding extra weight to the headshell or turning the counterweight around……all it does is make things sound worse and ruin needles and records faster. 2 - The anti-skate adjustment has never been correct according to the numbers on any table I've used. The correct way to set it is to get a record with nothing printed on it (at least on one side), put it on the turntable and put the needle on it (while it's spinning). Keep an eye on it so it doesn't jump completely off the record, and then just play with the anti-skate knob until it stays put towards the middle of the record. If you're scratching heavily, back it off just a bit from there (lower number). If you can't get the record to stop skipping like that, then there are like 3 common causes: you didn't level the turntable properly (with a $4 circular bubble level), your tonearm bearings are messed up, or you just plain can't scratch and need a lot more practice……which I believe you should do with the cheapest carts you can find………at least until you get to the point you're not skipping all over the damn place. |
| Evie Baghdasarian 20.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by Tornesoul
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| Precious Pequignot 20.01.2013 |
Originally Posted by jayo
whats ur settings for the cart/tonearm? |
| Evie Baghdasarian 21.01.2013 | I never really came back here to update. I went with the shure's, which is what I had in mind and everybody else reinforced. Everything is just peachy keen and I haven't looked back since. I just wish I had more time to play with the new tables. |
| Lauretta Ehrhorn 19.01.2013 | I've used ortofons but prefer the m44-7s for both timecode and real vinyl. Cheaper too, can't go wrong. |
| Precious Pequignot 19.01.2013 | Everyone is mostly recommending the shure m44-7s. old djtt post! http://www.djranking s.com/2010/05/1...ue-comparison/ I just bought a pair of 2nd hand stanton st150s that came with the original used stanton 680v3 hp carts. I believe the needles are wrecked, 1 cantilever seems to have a crack on it. Should i just get new 680v3 eliptical styli, or go for new m44-7 carts? |
| Teodora Hancharik 18.01.2013 | 44-7's |
| Rena Estabrook 22.12.2012 | Using DVS most of the time, I would use Shure if they weren't so unattractive. Looks like I'm laying a brick on the record. I used Concordes for a little while and didn't like how close the arm (I believe that's what it's called) of the built in headshell is to the tonearm. Using an Ortofon OM cartridge with the stock Technics headshell is also something to consider. My personal favorite is the Ortofon OM mounted on an early 90s Stanton Headshell where the arm is inline with the needle. |
| Shan Bauerly 22.12.2012 | M44-7. I prefer the tonearm setup with the Technics headshell over the integrated Ortofon units. I believe the geometry is better. Never even once had a issue with timecode. On music, they are bass heavy, which is preferable in a club, I believe. You can always EQ it out, but, it is difficult to add. You can get them pre-loaded on Tech headshells for $65/ea if you look around. Amazon, even. |
| Danae Dumler 13.12.2012 | I use M44-7s and yeah there's no point in using anything else if you're doing mostly DVS. Sound quality is irrelevant since you're not gonna sit and listen to the timecode. But for real vinyl M44-7s are still pretty damn good needles. They do emphasize the bass and they're built to stick in the groove and do an awesome job of it, without corresponding record wear. I also own some Ortofon Scratch needles (the pink ones). They do sound a bit better than the M44-7s but not enough that I would lose any sleep over it; and in my opinion the extra record wear is not worth the tradeoff. Those needles led to noticeable and immediate record wear when I back-cued an old (and cheaply made) record from the 1960s; whereas I did not have the same problem on the same record with the Shures. I can't speak for other Ortofons but that experience alone led me to shy away from their needles. That, and I hate Concorde shaped cartridge/headshell combos. The ones I got were not Concordes; I installed them on regular headshells; most of the concordes I've seen end up broken and they're annoyingly light to use when trying to drop the needle on the record. The sound quality difference between the Orts and the Shures was really minimal; the Shures still sound great to me, and both of them seem to color the sound and emphasize the bass. (And as for dust bunnies, I've gotten them with both needles; the Orts may be a bit better because of their shape but you're always going to have that issue I believe). If you want an affordable cart just for *listening* to vinyl (or for archiving it) I'd recommend the Shure M97xe. It's got a built in brush which is nice for the dust issue, and it does a much better job than the M44-7s or the Ortofons in terms of reproducing sound as neutrally as possible, without boosting the bass or making everything louder. But you don't want to be back-cueing or scratching with that needle. I picked up mine for about $45 off amazon but I believe they're more expensive now. |
| Maricruz Felter 13.12.2012 | I use the M44-7's. For DVS they're on point. Mine very seldom skip (and only will because my sub is right underneath my tables and if it's turned up too loud pretty much any needle will skip). As for casual listening... I don't really have a basis for comparison, they're the first and only needles I've ever tried. They are definitely a bit bass heavy though. I'm considering getting a spare cart and needle that's more suited for listening vs DJ'ing and just switching them out when I'm not mixing. The M44-7's are just so much cheaper. I'm curious to try the ortofons with the large nose though. My biggest complaint of the M44-7's is that they seem to accumulate a lot of dust right around the stylus, I've heard the Ortofons are a lot better at cutting down on that. |
| Annalisa Shogren 13.12.2012 | I have the evening club mk1s and they skip quite a lot... |
| Dorie Scelzo 13.12.2012 | M-447s for DVS. Period. Sound quality is almost irrelevant, and those styli last for freaking ever and stick like glue if you take 30 seconds to set up your tonearm. As far as playing real vinyl, I always kinda preferred shure whitelabels to ortofons. But I haven't heard evening club 2s. M44-Gs were very decent as well and way less expensive than orts. |
| Evie Baghdasarian 12.12.2012 | cool and thanks, thats just what I was hoping to hear. |
| Napoleon Koczur 12.12.2012 | I'll second that. I've got both, but don't use time coded vinyl. The 2 have a different sound, I find the Shures a bit more "banging" and the Ortofon more smooth and sophisticated! I find the Shure can be a bit fatiguing after an hour or so, whereas the Ortofon I can listen to all day no dramas! The feel is important too, I prefer the long nose of the Ortofon, you may not, so try before you buy. Ortofons are quite fragile and expensive to replace, so this may be a factor too. If you're gonna go the ortofon route, get the evening
club 2, with the go faster stripes on the side, they have a greatly improved sound for "modern" mastered dance records. The evening
club 1 is a very old design! Another contender is the Stanton 680 SA, the former production manager at the Ministry of Sound used to swear by them, rating the sound more than either Ortofon or Shure. I haven't used them though so can't comment. Basically you'll be happy with either, but unless you've got loads of spare cash and a fat stack of wax, the extra cost of the evening clubs is hard to justify! |
| Albertina Fay 12.12.2012 | if you are going to be using DVS, save yourself the money and get the m447's. I have used them since last year and have no complaints. they gave great tracking. |
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