Calvin Harris
and Dillon Francis
worked there... no way!
| Hip hop producers don't get enough credit Here is something that has been bugging me for the last little while. I've always found it strange that hip hop producers sell their beats, rather than working with MCs and making a song together. Its created this weird situation where hip hop producers are almost never named in the list of artists for a song. The beat is a huge part of the final product (especially in a lot of newer hip hop where a rapper only needs a vocabulary that consists of ten words), and i've always founded it a little strange that producers aren't credited properly. They aren't shown in the video, they don't have the same image, they aren't out there playing big shows and so on.
Examples
Cool and Dre produced a tonne of the "dj khaled" songs. Millions have listened to their music but very few know their names.
Diplo has produced a fair amount of beats that made it into the top 40 (such as "look at me now" and "paper planes". You never see his name under the list of artists however.
Macklemore has 10x as many facebook "likes" as ryan lewis. Ryan lewis is barely given any love in the thrift shop video. Ryan Lewis was actually credited as an artist on the song which was cool though.
I could go on for days with examples but there are some fairly big ones.
Thoughts? | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
See this is the new school believeing, where everyone is supposed to be in front, in the video. Quincy Jones is a producer. Alot of these gus are just beatmakers. They make the core of the beat and a producer arranges and rearranges it. Im not saying they all do this but that is how its done alot. So rapper likes a beat, buys its for 10g and owns it outright for his producer to do whatever they want with it. Artists in the tradionial sense don't have to write or produce, they perform. There are a gazillion artists, past and present that never wrote a lick of the songs they sing but its known as their song and their are tons of people, song writers, session musicians, producers, engineers, that have a lot to do with the "sound" that are credited for what they did on the track, it doesn't make them an "artist"
The bottom line is, a lot of top "producers" don't give a rats ass about being on stage or being known as an artist, they sit in a studio creating and getting paid and are more than happy to do just that.
really insightful post, i still find the whole dynamic a little odd but this basically answers the question i had. cheers dude! | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by brocklambert
Producers CHOOSE to be producers because of what the job is. Not everyone wants to have to tour and live in the public spotlight. Dre had his time... pretty sure if he wanted to perform new music and tour today, he could do it. As people get relatively successful and older, they don't want that lifestyle. Today's performance stars will be tomorrow's producers. The spotlight doesn't last forever, and pop music artists have a very short lifespan. Those who choose to go into producing do VERY WELL financially, and don't need name credit to get future business. They are known for what they do to the industry people who are hiring them. Public credit doesn't get them more money.
thats a fair point. but public credit would make them more money specifically with respect to getting more gigs. i don't believe producers are any less interested in playing shows and getting credit for their craft than other artists would be | Roseanna Signorini
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by IznremiX
thats the point that a lot of people bring up, however, i believe your overestimating how much these producers make. diplo is perhaps a bad example because he's already huge on his own. but look at guys like cool and dre. compared to the rappers on their tracks, how many gigs do they play and how much do they get paid for live shows? record sales are a tiny fraction of an artists income and these dudes would probably make a lot more if they were given cred for tracks.
either way, they made the track, so they should get credited as an artist. i believe not labelling them as artists limits how far producers and djs can go in hip hop, along with reducing the amount of respect they receive. Even with smaller rappers who are only known in their cities, there generally seems to be very little respect for producers and djs as artists. 99% of the time the dj at their show just hits play on a beat and stands their awkwardly (a great exception to this is Shad and his dj). I suppose what I was trying to get at, is that djs and producers are playing a very small role in the live environment, which is primarily a result of no one knowing who they are as they are never given credit for their music
@countenant, i don't believe anyone can comprehend what they are saying haha
See this is the new school believeing, where everyone is supposed to be in front, in the video. Quincy Jones is a producer. Alot of these gus are just beatmakers. They make the core of the beat and a producer arranges and rearranges it. Im not saying they all do this but that is how its done alot. So rapper likes a beat, buys its for 10g and owns it outright for his producer to do whatever they want with it. Artists in the tradionial sense don't have to write or produce, they perform. There are a gazillion artists, past and present that never wrote a lick of the songs they sing but its known as their song and their are tons of people, song writers, session musicians, producers, engineers, that have a lot to do with the "sound" that are credited for what they did on the track, it doesn't make them an "artist"
The bottom line is, a lot of top "producers" don't give a rats ass about being on stage or being known as an artist, they sit in a studio creating and getting paid and are more than happy to do just that. | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by CountenanT
Another point I'd make is that, if they felt that they needed to be credited...I'm sure they'd be able to negotiate it! Especially the big name ones. It might be easy to shunt a small time producer into the back of the inner sleeve credits, but if the big ones wanted credit, Im sure they'd have no problem getting it!
I believe you have an interesting point but it may have more to do with the dj and producer playing more of a secondary role in hip hop now, while the rapper fills in the role of the super star. at the beginning of hip hop, it was the other way around; the mc filled in more of a background role. as things currently sit though, i can only believe of only a handful of ultra famous hip hop producers (dr dre, timbaland, kanye and rza), i can't really believe of a single really famous hip hop dj and i can name famous rappers for days | Yu Santellano
04.03.2013 | PS: (Sorry for the double) Know where I can get that? Scoured Beatport, Amazon, iTunes, and come up with zip. | Yu Santellano
04.03.2013 | Didn't know they made em like that anymore, good one! | Jerica Salava
04.03.2013 | beats and rhymes in the zone:
> | Yu Santellano
04.03.2013 | Not a fan of that song myself...felt a bit messy and off kilter, though I suppose if he's holding a mirror that's the point.
At the end of the day I believe we're all saying the same thing here; producers do what they want because they're comfortable with it, if they wanted more, they'd go and get more. | Brunilda Kora
04.03.2013 |
Macklemore is the Vanilla Ice of 2013 and not HipHop.
Really??? I've only jsut got hold of The Heist - but in "Thrift Shop" he's holding a mirror to Hip-Hop in 2013 and showing how UGLY it has become. | Julissa Serrone
04.03.2013 | Not really a fan of him personally, but as a producer Kanye is unreal. | Antonetta Wikel
03.03.2013 | Macklemore is the Vanilla Ice of 2013 and not HipHop. | Sydney Lashway
03.03.2013 | As a person that started off in Hip0Hop/Rap production...
...I hear what your saying, but honestly, most producers chose it to be that way. Here are a few of my personal experiences working with local rappers and such.
PAID...My crew and I got paid, and that's what mattered. We were smart enough, to take the cash up front in most situations instead of going for royalties and such. Sometimes it was due to our lack of confidence in them, or their marketing abilities. Yeah you can say we were sell outs, but you know what...at 16 we didn't give a fuck.
Credit, though they may not be credited in the song, or have their names shouted out a nauseating amount of times they probably are in the liner notes. That being said, some times the rappers don't even know who produced the beat. If the rappers label/management buys a batch of tracks, the rapper literally files through them till they find something they like. Again, the producers got paid up front.
To draw a comparison, look at how many song writers you didn't or don't know about who have written grammy winning tracks. I.E. the people that write for Beyonce, Kelly Clarkson, Avril Lavigne, Celine Dione Mariah Carey (the list is endless). These songwriters/producers look at their music as a product. The same way the guy at the corner store doesn't give a fuck who's buying the pack of cigarettes or bag of Lays. These guys still get their grammy's but you'll NEVER hear of them. Of course there are the exceptions, like that dude from One Republic.
Ultimately, these guys are to an extent involved in the process of making the song. Some more than others. But, their outlook is a lot different than others who are actively trying to be famous as opposed to the producers who are pumping out tracks by the terra bytes to pay the bills. | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by dj matt blaze
See this is the new school believeing, where everyone is supposed to be in front, in the video. Quincy Jones is a producer. Alot of these gus are just beatmakers. They make the core of the beat and a producer arranges and rearranges it. Im not saying they all do this but that is how its done alot. So rapper likes a beat, buys its for 10g and owns it outright for his producer to do whatever they want with it. Artists in the tradionial sense don't have to write or produce, they perform. There are a gazillion artists, past and present that never wrote a lick of the songs they sing but its known as their song and their are tons of people, song writers, session musicians, producers, engineers, that have a lot to do with the "sound" that are credited for what they did on the track, it doesn't make them an "artist"
The bottom line is, a lot of top "producers" don't give a rats ass about being on stage or being known as an artist, they sit in a studio creating and getting paid and are more than happy to do just that.
really insightful post, i still find the whole dynamic a little odd but this basically answers the question i had. cheers dude! | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by brocklambert
Producers CHOOSE to be producers because of what the job is. Not everyone wants to have to tour and live in the public spotlight. Dre had his time... pretty sure if he wanted to perform new music and tour today, he could do it. As people get relatively successful and older, they don't want that lifestyle. Today's performance stars will be tomorrow's producers. The spotlight doesn't last forever, and pop music artists have a very short lifespan. Those who choose to go into producing do VERY WELL financially, and don't need name credit to get future business. They are known for what they do to the industry people who are hiring them. Public credit doesn't get them more money.
thats a fair point. but public credit would make them more money specifically with respect to getting more gigs. i don't believe producers are any less interested in playing shows and getting credit for their craft than other artists would be | Roseanna Signorini
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by IznremiX
thats the point that a lot of people bring up, however, i believe your overestimating how much these producers make. diplo is perhaps a bad example because he's already huge on his own. but look at guys like cool and dre. compared to the rappers on their tracks, how many gigs do they play and how much do they get paid for live shows? record sales are a tiny fraction of an artists income and these dudes would probably make a lot more if they were given cred for tracks.
either way, they made the track, so they should get credited as an artist. i believe not labelling them as artists limits how far producers and djs can go in hip hop, along with reducing the amount of respect they receive. Even with smaller rappers who are only known in their cities, there generally seems to be very little respect for producers and djs as artists. 99% of the time the dj at their show just hits play on a beat and stands their awkwardly (a great exception to this is Shad and his dj). I suppose what I was trying to get at, is that djs and producers are playing a very small role in the live environment, which is primarily a result of no one knowing who they are as they are never given credit for their music
@countenant, i don't believe anyone can comprehend what they are saying haha
See this is the new school believeing, where everyone is supposed to be in front, in the video. Quincy Jones is a producer. Alot of these gus are just beatmakers. They make the core of the beat and a producer arranges and rearranges it. Im not saying they all do this but that is how its done alot. So rapper likes a beat, buys its for 10g and owns it outright for his producer to do whatever they want with it. Artists in the tradionial sense don't have to write or produce, they perform. There are a gazillion artists, past and present that never wrote a lick of the songs they sing but its known as their song and their are tons of people, song writers, session musicians, producers, engineers, that have a lot to do with the "sound" that are credited for what they did on the track, it doesn't make them an "artist"
The bottom line is, a lot of top "producers" don't give a rats ass about being on stage or being known as an artist, they sit in a studio creating and getting paid and are more than happy to do just that. | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by CountenanT
Another point I'd make is that, if they felt that they needed to be credited...I'm sure they'd be able to negotiate it! Especially the big name ones. It might be easy to shunt a small time producer into the back of the inner sleeve credits, but if the big ones wanted credit, Im sure they'd have no problem getting it!
I believe you have an interesting point but it may have more to do with the dj and producer playing more of a secondary role in hip hop now, while the rapper fills in the role of the super star. at the beginning of hip hop, it was the other way around; the mc filled in more of a background role. as things currently sit though, i can only believe of only a handful of ultra famous hip hop producers (dr dre, timbaland, kanye and rza), i can't really believe of a single really famous hip hop dj and i can name famous rappers for days | Harley Zitka
03.03.2013 | Producers CHOOSE to be producers because of what the job is. Not everyone wants to have to tour and live in the public spotlight. Dre had his time... pretty sure if he wanted to perform new music and tour today, he could do it. As people get relatively successful and older, they don't want that lifestyle. Today's performance stars will be tomorrow's producers. The spotlight doesn't last forever, and pop music artists have a very short lifespan. Those who choose to go into producing do VERY WELL financially, and don't need name credit to get future business. They are known for what they do to the industry people who are hiring them. Public credit doesn't get them more money. | Yu Santellano
03.03.2013 | Another point I'd make is that, if they felt that they needed to be credited...I'm sure they'd be able to negotiate it! Especially the big name ones. It might be easy to shunt a small time producer into the back of the inner sleeve credits, but if the big ones wanted credit, Im sure they'd have no problem getting it! | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by CountenanT
I'm finding this a tad hard to get my head around I'll admit, but what about the fact that producers are pretty much never credited on anything anyway? Since pretty much ever? And it doesn't seem to be a problem. Unless they were also one of the artists on the track - be it pop, hip hop, or dance.
The vast majority of music buyers will buy a record off the artist name, the only people generally forward believeing enough to bother looking up a producer to find other tracks by them/hire them for their own purposes are those in the industry and DJs. Like ice to eskimos I'd say.
Very valid point I suppose I was looking at this only from an electronic music perspective. however, i still feel that if they made the beat (which is such a crucial and large part of the track), they should receive a bit more credit than they currently do | Yu Santellano
03.03.2013 | I'm finding this a tad hard to get my head around I'll admit, but what about the fact that producers are pretty much never credited on anything anyway? Since pretty much ever? And it doesn't seem to be a problem. Unless they were also one of the artists on the track - be it pop, hip hop, or dance.
The vast majority of music buyers will buy a record off the artist name, the only people generally forward believeing enough to bother looking up a producer to find other tracks by them/hire them for their own purposes are those in the industry and DJs. Like ice to eskimos I'd say. | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by brocklambert
I'm pretty sure they're content with just making millions of dollars off of producing mediocre tracks. You really believe Diplo gives a shit that he doesn't get name credit? Hell no... he got PAID and flies around in private jets.
thats the point that a lot of people bring up, however, i believe your overestimating how much these producers make. diplo is perhaps a bad example because he's already huge on his own. but look at guys like cool and dre. compared to the rappers on their tracks, how many gigs do they play and how much do they get paid for live shows? record sales are a tiny fraction of an artists income and these dudes would probably make a lot more if they were given cred for tracks.
either way, they made the track, so they should get credited as an artist. i believe not labelling them as artists limits how far producers and djs can go in hip hop, along with reducing the amount of respect they receive. Even with smaller rappers who are only known in their cities, there generally seems to be very little respect for producers and djs as artists. 99% of the time the dj at their show just hits play on a beat and stands their awkwardly (a great exception to this is Shad and his dj). I suppose what I was trying to get at, is that djs and producers are playing a very small role in the live environment, which is primarily a result of no one knowing who they are as they are never given credit for their music
@countenant, i don't believe anyone can comprehend what they are saying haha | Yu Santellano
03.03.2013 | Mmmm, also, what about when they're constantly shouting the name of their record label/producer/16 other rappers on the track over the intro? | Harley Zitka
03.03.2013 | I'm pretty sure they're content with just making millions of dollars off of producing mediocre tracks. You really believe Diplo gives a shit that he doesn't get name credit? Hell no... he got PAID and flies around in private jets. | Jetta Drenzek
03.03.2013 | Kendrick Lamar's backseat freestyle is an absolute tune. The lyrics are atrocious, like any good rap song! | Valeri Holderness
03.03.2013 |
Originally Posted by loverocket
People still make hip hop? I haven't heard a new hip hop song in years.
check out kendrick lamar i made a thread on him earlier, his album came out last year and imo it was a master piece
| Jerica Salava
03.03.2013 | People still make hip hop? I haven't heard a new hip hop song in years. |
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