First Timecode Experience So a mate of mine just bought himself Scratch A6, and asked for my help setting up his timecode as he was experiencing some weird issues. So I went down during the day to our kinda "home" venue (we both work there) where was having a play in the booth during closed hours; here's the setup...
- 2x CDJ1000mk2s
- 1x DJM-600
- 1x Audio 6
- MK2 Timecode CDs
- MacBook Pro
- Traktor 2.6.1
Everything was set up fine, timecode properly calibrated, etc etc. And now, here come the "bugs":
- Pitch control is... well... wank, tbh. Pitchfader doesn't move smoothly, and actually controlling the pitch to any reasonable standard is impossible.
- Jogwheels are just as bad, scratch mode is "okayish" but pitchbending is terrible
- Cueing is practically insane. You grab the first beat, hit cue, and it jumps forward and THEN starts playing. You can skip forward through the track using the jogwheel, but then pressing PLAY restarts the track completely.
I turned down the latency on the A6 to 4.9ms, which improved pitchbending slightly but not the tempo fader or the cueing issues. Am I missing something, or is timecode basically a joke compared to MIDI/HID control? |
Alphonso Deitchman
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by Hippie
Try using Relative mode and letting it run and using cue points in Traktor to jump to the point you want to play from.
That's an idea. I was trying to believe of a way for the X1 to handle cueing in when using timecode; the CuePause and CuePlay can't be used since they get replaced by Rel/Abs buttons. |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
You'd need 2 Contours to get the necessary jog wheels, but as I've seen already they aren't the smallest of modular controllers. I have been in booths where adding even 1 Contour would be impossible. And a sound card is far less likely to be damaged than a controller in the booth.
Don't forget there's deck a/b/c/d switches in the top right, theoretically you just need a single Contour IE for a full 4-deck setup which is nice, but yeah... some booths are painfully small lol. I usually unhook the CDJs (if there are any there) and stick 'em under the booth for the duration of my set in that case, or just slide them outwards by about 7 inches each if there's space. |
Alphonso Deitchman
18.04.2013 | Something like an X1 is really a necessity for any timecode user. For browsing+loading tracks if nothing else.
You'd need 2 Contours to get the necessary jog wheels, but as I've seen already they aren't the smallest of modular controllers. I have been in booths where adding even 1 Contour would be impossible. And a sound card is far less likely to be damaged than a controller in the booth.
Originally Posted by city_boy07
how do djs use the cd timecodes then just put the cdj into 'vinyl' mode?
Yes, you need to be in Vinyl Jog mode to be able to cue in tracks properly. |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
Yep, the only reason to use timecode today is so you can have platter/transport control in pretty much any major club without having to bring any more than a sound card and some CDs. Vinyl is another matter of course.
Tbh I'm surprised given these limitations that even MORE DJs haven't bought X1s/K2s/Contours :-\
Also, it seems people have been having this issue for years. Which I guess is why Pioneer added HID/MIDI to their newer players. |
Alphonso Deitchman
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Ahhh... I just meant the software side of things. For example, starting off with one track at 128 and another at 126, actually adjusting the tempo of track B to 128 was a NIGHTMARE. The software fader jumping around like a maniac, etc. Well... not jumping as such, just uneven movement if you know what I mean?
Yeah, for some reason the software fader is completely useless in timecode. The audio itself should change very smoothly though.
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Oh he REALLY won't be happy with that lol. It's a shame NI don't make things like that clear BEFORE you buy the gear :-\ The play issue was weird... basically, you can seek fine using the jogwheel, but then pressing the Play/Pause button on the CDJ causes the track to play from the 1st cuepoint (load marker), NOT its current position. It was very, very bizarre.
It's the same for all timecode system (AFAIK). I've seen the exact same issue on Serato too.
I believe I've worked out what the playing from the beginning might be though. The track starts off with a temporary cuepoint at the start; if you scroll forwards through a track on Pio CDJs and don't set a new cuepoint, it will return to the last temporary cue point once you release the jog wheel. Obviously Traktor doesn't realise this until you press play, since timecode only updates from actual playback. Pay close attention to the time info on the CDJ screen and you should see it skip back to 0:00 or something when the jog is released.
Pressing Play twice will release it from the locked cuepoint.
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
From what I've seen of timecode's limitations today, it makes more sense for a Traktor purist to go that route rather than timecode off the 1000s.
Yep, the only reason to use timecode today is so you can have platter/transport control in pretty much any major club without having to bring any more than a sound card and some CDs. Vinyl is another matter of course.
Edit:
Originally Posted by city_boy07
MARKA, i use my tsp with vinyl. but next week im going to have to use it with the timecode cds... when you say timecode dus not support instant cueing from standstill, do you mean that if i cue a point on the cdj and then count the beats of my playin track and press play on the cdj in time with the down beat it wont play in time??
if this is the case i might just do the whole gig with just the x1?
Yes, you can't just press Play or Cue from standstill and expect it to be in time. Like I mentioned before; to get accurate cueing you must press Play, hold the track on the platter, and cue it in like a real vinyl that's sitting on a moving platter. |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by city_boy07
hmm thats no good. im sure ive played with djs that have accomplished this though... shame i dnt have any contact details for em
Well that's what I always thought... might just be a configuration issue though, makar/Karlos will know for sure either way. |
Hayden Raugh
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
From what I saw today, it's worse than that... it actually skips FORWARD by like a quarter of a beat and then starts playing, makes it basically impossible to drop a track on time.
hmm thats no good. im sure ive played with djs that have accomplished this though... shame i dnt have any contact details for em |
Alphonso Deitchman
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by Hippie
Try using Relative mode and letting it run and using cue points in Traktor to jump to the point you want to play from.
That's an idea. I was trying to believe of a way for the X1 to handle cueing in when using timecode; the CuePause and CuePlay can't be used since they get replaced by Rel/Abs buttons. |
Tania Somppi
18.04.2013 | Try using Relative mode and letting it run and using cue points in Traktor to jump to the point you want to play from.
And switch off the pitch fader display lol |
Latina Samon
18.04.2013 | I didn't realise there were cueing issues like that with timecode cds.
I'm sure I've seen people cueing up regularly running a laptop but I guess that could be HID mode? Always wondered why it was meant to be so much better. |
Delila Vandommelen
18.04.2013 | -Don't look at the numbers ! Just see how many threads there are all over the place of people using timecode vinyl (where playback speed WILL jitter much more) complaining about jumpy bpm displays.
-Don't look at the software pitch fader, just hide it in the display settings.
-button cueing is wank with timecode on cdjs. As far as I could tell, manual cueing, vinyl style felt laggier on timecode cd than timecode vinyl to me anyway... but that's just how I felt. In fact, with straight files from usb too. It's probably mostly the haptics of the cdj platters vs vinyl.
Timecode feels much better on vinyl I believe. |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
You'd need 2 Contours to get the necessary jog wheels, but as I've seen already they aren't the smallest of modular controllers. I have been in booths where adding even 1 Contour would be impossible. And a sound card is far less likely to be damaged than a controller in the booth.
Don't forget there's deck a/b/c/d switches in the top right, theoretically you just need a single Contour IE for a full 4-deck setup which is nice, but yeah... some booths are painfully small lol. I usually unhook the CDJs (if there are any there) and stick 'em under the booth for the duration of my set in that case, or just slide them outwards by about 7 inches each if there's space. |
Alphonso Deitchman
18.04.2013 | Something like an X1 is really a necessity for any timecode user. For browsing+loading tracks if nothing else.
You'd need 2 Contours to get the necessary jog wheels, but as I've seen already they aren't the smallest of modular controllers. I have been in booths where adding even 1 Contour would be impossible. And a sound card is far less likely to be damaged than a controller in the booth.
Originally Posted by city_boy07
how do djs use the cd timecodes then just put the cdj into 'vinyl' mode?
Yes, you need to be in Vinyl Jog mode to be able to cue in tracks properly. |
Hayden Raugh
18.04.2013 | ahh i didnt know this... how do djs use the cd timecodes then just put the cdj into 'vinyl' mode? which i dont mind doing as i play on the timecode vinyl anway.
MDC - the lag on the software pitchfader only happend to me after update 2.5 |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
Yep, the only reason to use timecode today is so you can have platter/transport control in pretty much any major club without having to bring any more than a sound card and some CDs. Vinyl is another matter of course.
Tbh I'm surprised given these limitations that even MORE DJs haven't bought X1s/K2s/Contours :-\
Also, it seems people have been having this issue for years. Which I guess is why Pioneer added HID/MIDI to their newer players. |
Alphonso Deitchman
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Ahhh... I just meant the software side of things. For example, starting off with one track at 128 and another at 126, actually adjusting the tempo of track B to 128 was a NIGHTMARE. The software fader jumping around like a maniac, etc. Well... not jumping as such, just uneven movement if you know what I mean?
Yeah, for some reason the software fader is completely useless in timecode. The audio itself should change very smoothly though.
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Oh he REALLY won't be happy with that lol. It's a shame NI don't make things like that clear BEFORE you buy the gear :-\ The play issue was weird... basically, you can seek fine using the jogwheel, but then pressing the Play/Pause button on the CDJ causes the track to play from the 1st cuepoint (load marker), NOT its current position. It was very, very bizarre.
It's the same for all timecode system (AFAIK). I've seen the exact same issue on Serato too.
I believe I've worked out what the playing from the beginning might be though. The track starts off with a temporary cuepoint at the start; if you scroll forwards through a track on Pio CDJs and don't set a new cuepoint, it will return to the last temporary cue point once you release the jog wheel. Obviously Traktor doesn't realise this until you press play, since timecode only updates from actual playback. Pay close attention to the time info on the CDJ screen and you should see it skip back to 0:00 or something when the jog is released.
Pressing Play twice will release it from the locked cuepoint.
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
From what I've seen of timecode's limitations today, it makes more sense for a Traktor purist to go that route rather than timecode off the 1000s.
Yep, the only reason to use timecode today is so you can have platter/transport control in pretty much any major club without having to bring any more than a sound card and some CDs. Vinyl is another matter of course.
Edit:
Originally Posted by city_boy07
MARKA, i use my tsp with vinyl. but next week im going to have to use it with the timecode cds... when you say timecode dus not support instant cueing from standstill, do you mean that if i cue a point on the cdj and then count the beats of my playin track and press play on the cdj in time with the down beat it wont play in time??
if this is the case i might just do the whole gig with just the x1?
Yes, you can't just press Play or Cue from standstill and expect it to be in time. Like I mentioned before; to get accurate cueing you must press Play, hold the track on the platter, and cue it in like a real vinyl that's sitting on a moving platter. |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by city_boy07
hmm thats no good. im sure ive played with djs that have accomplished this though... shame i dnt have any contact details for em
Well that's what I always thought... might just be a configuration issue though, makar/Karlos will know for sure either way. |
Hayden Raugh
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
From what I saw today, it's worse than that... it actually skips FORWARD by like a quarter of a beat and then starts playing, makes it basically impossible to drop a track on time.
hmm thats no good. im sure ive played with djs that have accomplished this though... shame i dnt have any contact details for em |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by city_boy07
MARKA, i use my tsp with vinyl. but next week im going to have to use it with the timecode cds... when you say timecode dus not support instant cueing from standstill, do you mean that if i cue a point on the cdj and then count the beats of my playin track and press play on the cdj in time with the down beat it wont play in time??
if this is the case i might just do the whole gig with just the x1?
From what I saw today, it's worse than that... it actually skips FORWARD by like a quarter of a beat and then starts playing, makes it basically impossible to drop a track on time. |
Hayden Raugh
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
Do you mean the software fader lag, or do you have a noticeable audible lag in the pitch changing?
As with the pitch fader, are you measuring performance by what you hear or what you see? Pitch bend seems fine to me through timecode on my 2000s
This is the main drawback of timecode. It does not support instant cueing from standstill; the best you can achieve is by pressing Play then holding the track with the jog wheel, then cueing it in like vinyl.
Not sure what you mean by "PLAY restarts the track completely" though?
HID does blow timecode out of the water. You should get better platter performance in Traktor using timecode over MIDI, which is why Denon use their Hybrid Timecode+MIDI system.
MARKA, i use my tsp with vinyl. but next week im going to have to use it with the timecode cds... when you say timecode dus not support instant cueing from standstill, do you mean that if i cue a point on the cdj and then count the beats of my playin track and press play on the cdj in time with the down beat it wont play in time??
if this is the case i might just do the whole gig with just the x1? |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by makar1
Do you mean the software fader lag, or do you have a noticeable audible lag in the pitch changing?
As with the pitch fader, are you measuring performance by what you hear or what you see? Pitch bend seems fine to me through timecode on my 2000s
Ahhh... I just meant the software side of things. For example, starting off with one track at 128 and another at 126, actually adjusting the tempo of track B to 128 was a NIGHTMARE. The software fader jumping around like a maniac, etc. Well... not jumping as such, just uneven movement if you know what I mean?
Originally Posted by makar1
This is the main drawback of timecode. It does not support instant cueing from standstill; the best you can achieve is by pressing Play then holding the track with the jog wheel, then cueing it in like vinyl.
Not sure what you mean by "PLAY restarts the track completely" though?
Oh he REALLY won't be happy with that lol. It's a shame NI don't make things like that clear BEFORE you buy the gear :-\ The play issue was weird... basically, you can seek fine using the jogwheel, but then pressing the Play/Pause button on the CDJ causes the track to play from the 1st cuepoint (load marker), NOT its current position. It was very, very bizarre.
Originally Posted by makar1
HID does blow timecode out of the water. You should get better platter performance in Traktor using timecode over MIDI, which is why Denon use their Hybrid Timecode+MIDI system.
That makes sense. I've recommended that if he wants to use "CDJ-style" devices to control Traktor (his main concern is apparently the "look" of his setup... he believes that controllers are unprofessional for some reason), he get a MIDI crossmedia solution like the RMP-3s or some other MIDI/HID capable gear like 850s or 900s etc.
From what I've seen of timecode's limitations today, it makes more sense for a Traktor purist to go that route rather than timecode off the 1000s.
Cheers for all your input makar |
Alphonso Deitchman
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
- Pitch control is... well... wank, tbh. Pitchfader doesn't move smoothly, and actually controlling the pitch to any reasonable standard is impossible.
Do you mean the software fader lag, or do you have a noticeable audible lag in the pitch changing?
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
- Jogwheels are just as bad, scratch mode is "okayish" but pitchbending is terrible
As with the pitch fader, are you measuring performance by what you hear or what you see? Pitch bend seems fine to me through timecode on my 2000s
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
- Cueing is practically insane. You grab the first beat, hit cue, and it jumps forward and THEN starts playing. You can skip forward through the track using the jogwheel, but then pressing PLAY restarts the track completely.
This is the main drawback of timecode. It does not support instant cueing from standstill; the best you can achieve is by pressing Play then holding the track with the jog wheel, then cueing it in like vinyl.
Not sure what you mean by "PLAY restarts the track completely" though?
Originally Posted by mdcdesign
Am I missing something, or is timecode basically a joke compared to MIDI/HID control?
HID does blow timecode out of the water. You should get better platter performance in Traktor using timecode over MIDI, which is why Denon use their Hybrid Timecode+MIDI system. |
Crystal Lounsbery
18.04.2013 | Do you have keylock enabled on the cdj? It must be turned off for timecode function properly.. |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by Patch
Awwwww... I was expecting this thread to convince me to take the jump and buy TSP2.5...
Good luck with your issues, though...
Cheers mate Luckily it's not me who spent |
Brunilda Kora
18.04.2013 | Awwwww... I was expecting this thread to convince me to take the jump and buy TSP2.5...
Good luck with your issues, though... |
Doreen Schurle
18.04.2013 |
Originally Posted by city_boy07
maybe ask Karlos on this one...
Karlos...
|
Hayden Raugh
18.04.2013 | i havent had a problem with my timecode at all.
maybe ask Karlos on this one... |
