S4 to KRK RP6 G2 - balanced?

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S4 to KRK RP6 G2 - balanced?
Posted on: 16.10.2010 by Efren Awalt
Hey guys,

While waiting for the S4 to arrive I've gotten myself the RP6 speakers. I've checked out the Know-your-connections post and the cable-pizza post but there's one thing I am not sure of.

I got the choice of going balanced XLR or TRS (or unbalanced RCA but somehow that doesn't feel 'pro') on the RP6. Now I know the S4 doesn't have XLR but it does have balanced TRS so when I was in the shop today asking for some balanced 'jack' cables (didn't know the proper abbreviation, TRS, for it) I ended up with what appears to be 'mono' plugs. Now I was told by this friend this probably isn't the right cable as I should be gettings jack plugs that appear to be stereo plugs, with 2 rings.

Am I right that they alway appear to be 'stereo' jacks in order for them to be balanced? For the "cold" ring bit? Or do 'mono' jacks also exist as balanced plugs? Mind you when I refer to mono or stereo I mean the look of the actual cable, not the signal going through it as I realize that is mono by definition.

Cheers!
Kristian Buneta
18.10.2010
Originally Posted by Terreur
maxonemillionone, because it is balanced TRS! The S4, which is why I got the KRK's in first place, have 2 Balanced TRS outputs, both being mono. So one functions as left and the other as right which creates... stereo .
Still, despite the outputs being mono, you'd need stereo plugs on both in order for the mono signal to become balanced. I know it's confusing as f*ck but that's why I started this thread. In order to have balanced lines you need stereo cables even though the signal going through them is mono o.O

(correct me if I'm wrong tho)
Pardon me I mis-interpreted stereo TRS cables as being the same as mono. Alas in another discussion the distinction was made that true balanced stereo TRS cables has a fourth ring upon the necking which brings me to the point that I should have never posted. Sorry

I'm writing an essay for my cousin so my family back home in California buy's me an APC40. That's why I sound all intellectual right now. I hate it >.>
Francina Decosse
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by photojojo
So on balanced stereo cables that only have two contacts is it really mono and they use the second channel for the ground?
Do not confuse ground and negative - they are not the same. The negative is the optional wire - if present, the cable becomes balanced. The ground is the one which usually collects the interferences.

The signal travels on the Positive/Tip/Hot and the Ring/Sleeve/Negative/Cold wires. The ground is there for grounding only, not for transporting signal (in case the cable is used in balanced mode). If the there's no Ring, then the ground chain is used for both Negative transport and Grounding, which is why it captures interferences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS_con...ve_terminology
Tatum Ansaldo
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by Terreur
maxonemillionone, because it is balanced TRS! The S4, which is why I got the KRK's in first place, have 2 Balanced TRS outputs, both being mono. So one functions as left and the other as right which creates... stereo .
Still, despite the outputs being mono, you'd need stereo plugs on both in order for the mono signal to become balanced. I know it's confusing as f*ck but that's why I started this thread. In order to have balanced lines you need stereo cables even though the signal going through them is mono o.O

(correct me if I'm wrong tho)
Yep that's it, 3 lines per channel which is what you have in a stereo cable.
Kristian Buneta
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by fullenglishpint
For a stereo signal to be balanced, believe it or not you need 6 contacts, 3 for left and 3 for right.

The standard unbalanced RCA connections from say a soundcard to a mixer use a live and a ground for each side so 4 contacts, a headphone cable uses 3 (Left live, Right live and ground).

EDIT: I don't believe there is such a thing as a balanced stereo cable... the standard is a pair of XLRs.
Then why would Native Instruments even advertise the Kontrol S4 as a BALANCED TRS? They aren't idiots and they damn sure are experts.
Tatum Ansaldo
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by photojojo
So on balanced stereo cables that only have two contacts is it really mono and they use the second channel for the ground?
For a stereo signal to be balanced, believe it or not you need 6 contacts, 3 for left and 3 for right.

The standard unbalanced RCA connections from say a soundcard to a mixer use a live and a ground for each side so 4 contacts, a headphone cable uses 3 (Left live, Right live and ground).

EDIT: I don't believe there is such a thing as a balanced stereo cable... the standard is a pair of XLRs.
Efren Awalt
16.10.2010		Hey guys,

While waiting for the S4 to arrive I've gotten myself the RP6 speakers. I've checked out the Know-your-connections post and the cable-pizza post but there's one thing I am not sure of.

I got the choice of going balanced XLR or TRS (or unbalanced RCA but somehow that doesn't feel 'pro') on the RP6. Now I know the S4 doesn't have XLR but it does have balanced TRS so when I was in the shop today asking for some balanced 'jack' cables (didn't know the proper abbreviation, TRS, for it) I ended up with what appears to be 'mono' plugs. Now I was told by this friend this probably isn't the right cable as I should be gettings jack plugs that appear to be stereo plugs, with 2 rings.

Am I right that they alway appear to be 'stereo' jacks in order for them to be balanced? For the "cold" ring bit? Or do 'mono' jacks also exist as balanced plugs? Mind you when I refer to mono or stereo I mean the look of the actual cable, not the signal going through it as I realize that is mono by definition.

Cheers!
Mistie Marcott
08.11.2010		This is something I was reading up about too since it's also going to bother me about what cables to buy. I also have the Audio 4 DJ, and its only got RCA inputs and outputs, but with a ground connector. So how exactly would this work with gear you want to run without unbalanced cabling (RCA's)? Would I have to connect a ground wire to the terminal on the A4Dj, and then run it along the speaker cable to the ground on the gear , assuming there is actually a grounding terminal on the gear .

Very confused.
Kristian Buneta
18.10.2010
Originally Posted by Terreur
maxonemillionone, because it is balanced TRS! The S4, which is why I got the KRK's in first place, have 2 Balanced TRS outputs, both being mono. So one functions as left and the other as right which creates... stereo .
Still, despite the outputs being mono, you'd need stereo plugs on both in order for the mono signal to become balanced. I know it's confusing as f*ck but that's why I started this thread. In order to have balanced lines you need stereo cables even though the signal going through them is mono o.O

(correct me if I'm wrong tho)
Pardon me I mis-interpreted stereo TRS cables as being the same as mono. Alas in another discussion the distinction was made that true balanced stereo TRS cables has a fourth ring upon the necking which brings me to the point that I should have never posted. Sorry

I'm writing an essay for my cousin so my family back home in California buy's me an APC40. That's why I sound all intellectual right now. I hate it >.>
Francina Decosse
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by photojojo
So on balanced stereo cables that only have two contacts is it really mono and they use the second channel for the ground?
Do not confuse ground and negative - they are not the same. The negative is the optional wire - if present, the cable becomes balanced. The ground is the one which usually collects the interferences.

The signal travels on the Positive/Tip/Hot and the Ring/Sleeve/Negative/Cold wires. The ground is there for grounding only, not for transporting signal (in case the cable is used in balanced mode). If the there's no Ring, then the ground chain is used for both Negative transport and Grounding, which is why it captures interferences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS_con...ve_terminology
Tatum Ansaldo
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by Terreur
maxonemillionone, because it is balanced TRS! The S4, which is why I got the KRK's in first place, have 2 Balanced TRS outputs, both being mono. So one functions as left and the other as right which creates... stereo .
Still, despite the outputs being mono, you'd need stereo plugs on both in order for the mono signal to become balanced. I know it's confusing as f*ck but that's why I started this thread. In order to have balanced lines you need stereo cables even though the signal going through them is mono o.O

(correct me if I'm wrong tho)
Yep that's it, 3 lines per channel which is what you have in a stereo cable.
Efren Awalt
17.10.2010		maxonemillionone, because it is balanced TRS! The S4, which is why I got the KRK's in first place, have 2 Balanced TRS outputs, both being mono. So one functions as left and the other as right which creates... stereo .
Still, despite the outputs being mono, you'd need stereo plugs on both in order for the mono signal to become balanced. I know it's confusing as f*ck but that's why I started this thread. In order to have balanced lines you need stereo cables even though the signal going through them is mono o.O

(correct me if I'm wrong tho)
Kristian Buneta
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by fullenglishpint
For a stereo signal to be balanced, believe it or not you need 6 contacts, 3 for left and 3 for right.

The standard unbalanced RCA connections from say a soundcard to a mixer use a live and a ground for each side so 4 contacts, a headphone cable uses 3 (Left live, Right live and ground).

EDIT: I don't believe there is such a thing as a balanced stereo cable... the standard is a pair of XLRs.
Then why would Native Instruments even advertise the Kontrol S4 as a BALANCED TRS? They aren't idiots and they damn sure are experts.
Tatum Ansaldo
17.10.2010
Originally Posted by photojojo
So on balanced stereo cables that only have two contacts is it really mono and they use the second channel for the ground?
For a stereo signal to be balanced, believe it or not you need 6 contacts, 3 for left and 3 for right.

The standard unbalanced RCA connections from say a soundcard to a mixer use a live and a ground for each side so 4 contacts, a headphone cable uses 3 (Left live, Right live and ground).

EDIT: I don't believe there is such a thing as a balanced stereo cable... the standard is a pair of XLRs.
Leeanna Ayla
17.10.2010		So on balanced stereo cables that only have two contacts is it really mono and they use the second channel for the ground?
Tatum Ansaldo
17.10.2010		Balanced needs 3 connections per channel since it basically inverts the signal and sends it down a second 'live' connection, using the 3rd as the ground. XLR has 3 contacts, balanced TRS needs 3 contacts.
Efren Awalt
17.10.2010		Cheers knaumov, I will do just that, for the feeling knowing I got the right cables.
Francina Decosse
17.10.2010		The mono cables will work fine on the balanced in/out, but in unbalanced mode. The balanced in/out is made tolerant of using both dual and tripple conductor cables/connectors. And yes, the jack connector has to be of the "stereo"/TRS type if you are after the balanced feature

The practical benefit of balanced vs unbalanced is that the unbalanced cables will be getting interference from other electronic devices (e.g. cell phones when they are about to ring). With balanced you won't be getting external interference even if you have many meters of cables.

You could replace them for the stereo plug or not - that depends only if you really expect to have interference. Of course you have to be satisfied too, so do as you feel . Technically, you would probably be fine even with the ones you've got.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS_connector

P.S. I believe i would change them just for the feel ....
Efren Awalt
17.10.2010		Indeed... so djproben, mono plugs can be balanced afterall?? Again, I know the mono sound coming through the cable is mono regardless wether I use stereo or mono plugs but I am confused as far as the plugs themselves go. Mono plugs cannot be balanced from what I've read/heard/saw.
Lorita Leazenby
16.10.2010		Now it gets confusing
Danae Dumler
16.10.2010		If you have two speakers and two outlets on your S4, you're in good shape - one mono plug for each speaker. You don't want two stereo plugs. Don't go back to the store
Efren Awalt
16.10.2010		Hah, no, it wasn't the Media Markt... I mean, "ik ben toch niet gek :P"
It was an actual music store with guitars and amps and all, cables costed me 25 euro's (12,50 each, Schulz cables) aswell!
The guy behind the counter was an old fart though. Looking back I now realize why I had to repeat myself 5 times when saying "balanced" and the 6th time I said it in dutch, gebalanceerd, it worked. He was clueless... Like me haha. Oh well, back to the store I guess.
Lorita Leazenby
16.10.2010		That's what I understood from the website, you need a stereo cable, so yup, they gave you the wrong cable... Terug naar mediamarkt
Efren Awalt
16.10.2010		Ya I get that, but both examples in your link show Tip-Ring-Sleeve connectors. So to me, as the novice, it looks like a stereo connector. So you've confirmed what I am believeing: A stereo jack cable can be used to transport Stereo sound (left + right) or mono sound, balanced (hot and cold). This means effectively that there's no such thing as a balanced mono cable (not the signal, but the cable with just 1 ring).

This is what I got when asking for balanced jack cables in that store:


I believe that's the wrong cable as it's missing one ring for the cold part of balanced cables. This picture below illustrates what I believe is missing, namely #2, the center bit:
Lorita Leazenby
16.10.2010		"TRS cabling is identical whether it's used for stereo or balanced mono."

http://www.thegaragedoor.com/tutorials/balanced.html

Google is your friend...

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