Non synced, non "producer" DJ sets and the human touch

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Non synced, non "producer" DJ sets and the human touch
Posted on: 02.08.2012 by Johnetta Olewine
I love good djing and an amazing DJ set. It makes me smile and feel a certain warmth inside that is completely different to the feeling that a produced album or to a completely different extent, a live artist set can achieve. Its different. Its immediate with a element of recognisability. Its almost physically tangible when you can hear through the selection what is going on in a DJs head when they mix in the next record.

And this is why I love to hear amazing non-synced, non programmed DJ set these days. For me, there is an extra element to a set, be it live or listening to it recorded where you hear those human elements in eq-ing, a slightly off beat that is quickly corrected or a rough quick mix that is thrown in because the current tune might be fucking up the chi.

I was listening to an old Danny Howells set, which was over 4 hours mind, in the final set at ARC NYC in 2004 with Danny Tenaglia and it dawned on me what was missing from so much current stuff. This was a time of records and Howells just dominates with an immediacy and mixing prowess that manages to draw you in listening on your ipod some 8 years later. I'm hanging off every selection. There is wild changes of BPM, of genre, and there is "obvious mixing" but its all makes me feel as if I was standing there in 2004, sweating like a sex criminal. The links to the set are here http://www.inthemix.com.au/community /sho...d.php?t=306169 if anyone wants to have a listen.

So, I genuinely believe that automation has removed a human element to DJing that used to be part of a great DJs arsenal. Can a sync based DJ re-find this human element? Am I just an elderly dinosaur of years past that doesnt understand the current state of play?

This is not a "Sync is cheating" discussion. So anyone harping on about that shit can fuck right off. Its more than that. Its about an almost an esoteric element to DJing that may, or may not, have been left by the wayside in the quest to "do more things" as a DJ...
Tari Virdi
03.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
You as a dj listen more intently when you mix on vinyl, on cdj's you listen about half as much as the bpm counter does most of the work, with software you barely listen and instead watch the various displays to tell you what the music is doing.

When you listen more closely your mixing is more subtle and more respectful of the original productions, if you don't listen you can be great with timing but give the eq's no love which is where the focus should be. All IMO from my experience of course... After learning this for myself I built myself a skin with no waves and hidden song views so I am flying blind and have no option but to listen more intently and go with my instincts.

Think less = hear more
I agree 100%...
Freida Leash
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by LoopCat
lol wtf I didn't post that. ^

Oops grabbed the wrong quote.
Freida Leash
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by LoopCat
I feel like the instant gratification of sync and electronic wizardry means that there is a lot more boredom in the DJ booth, which has led to a feeling that the crowd is getting bored, so the DJ feels the need to fuck with something.
I feel this to a strong degree. I love pulling a routine, it is great to juggle and mash things to oblivion and back, too much of a great thing is bad. Effects be under everything, adding to it, not blatantly beating you up. People should take time to develop mixes and song selection, it is awesome to make a long slow build in energy, and drop it back down again.

One of the reasons I never really appreciated Chicago House/Booty House as much as I could have is that the hyper fast mixing style, much like effect mashing today, never let the groove build. I found tons of songs I liked but when the songs are all mixed out on the next 16th beat, it becomes too jarring, and less fun for me to dance too.

Personally I don't believe sync matters between whether it sounds human or good, I believe careful attention to phrasing, the way the phrase is brought in either by eq, line fader or crossfader. Most of the talented dj's that I respect could ride the pitch a nudge and hold it closer than I believe I can with sync with out notable drift.
Ming Devis
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by photojojo
On the other hand I guess sync can magnify the problem because it's easier and quicker for newer DJ's to believe they're sounding good because it's beat matched. On that same level though it would be just as easy to blame Soundcloud, Youtube and all the other ways that make it extremely easy to get your mediocre mix out there.
I agree. Plus lots of new DJ's don't train there ears at all and rely on sync or BPM read outs to mix and don't realise that their mix is out. They believe in the computer way too much and don't use the platter or pitch fader to adjust. So many new DJ's especially ones brought up on new Pioneer gear just match the BPM's and hit play on the first beat. If their throw is a nit off they just roll with it. One reason why I chose TT's for my first set up was so I could have a collection of vinyl on the side to train my ear and use DVS when I want to play mp3's.
Carmelo Politowicz
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by guiltyblade
I've thought a lot of people to dj. I almost always start them on cdjs, for the most part so they can get some success easily. I don't want it handed to them because then its just kinda pointless. I've told people that people in the audience are not watching music, they are listening to music, therefore you should be listening too.
Totally agree. Speaking of which, when are you going to teach me how to play on your CDJ's? I'm waiting to hear back from the SFDG Beat-Repeat guys; hopefully I get a slot soon.
Carmelo Politowicz
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by Era 7
i can confirm that. the less i focus on my screen the better my mixes turn out (it's also more fun).

and i personally love to hear some little human screwups in DJ sets like a a drifting beat that is corrected here and there. somewhat makes it fun to listen to listen to. sets like the ones by roger sanchez or carl cox or basically most pre 2005 sets have something "human" too it that many sets now don't have.
I love hearing it not because it sounds good to my ear, but because it makes me feel like they are human. If Carl Cox can mess up when playing in front of 10k people at a festival and blow it off, I can mess up on a mix in front of 50 people and (try) to not worry about it. It makes me feel like a better DJ to know that the pro's can mess up just like I do - I know that's selfish and egotistical, but I get a kick out of it in a way - and mostly because 99% of my friends never even hear the "mistake," so in a sense, it reminds me that I am being WAY too critical of my own mixes when I listen to them.
Carmelo Politowicz
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by oliosky
I love good djing and an amazing DJ set. It makes me smile and feel a certain warmth inside that is completely different to the feeling that a produced album or to a completely different extent, a live artist set can achieve. Its different. Its immediate with a element of recognisability. Its almost physically tangible when you can hear through the selection what is going on in a DJs head when they mix in the next record.

And this is why I love to hear amazing non-synced, non programmed DJ set these days. For me, there is an extra element to a set, be it live or listening to it recorded where you hear those human elements in eq-ing, a slightly off beat that is quickly corrected or a rough quick mix that is thrown in because the current tune might be fucking up the chi.

I was listening to an old Danny Howells set, which was over 4 hours mind, in the final set at ARC NYC in 2004 with Danny Tenaglia and it dawned on me what was missing from so much current stuff. This was a time of records and Howells just dominates with an immediacy and mixing prowess that manages to draw you in listening on your ipod some 8 years later. I'm hanging off every selection. There is wild changes of BPM, of genre, and there is "obvious mixing" but its all makes me feel as if I was standing there in 2004, sweating like a sex criminal. The links to the set are here http://www.inthemix.com.au/community /sho...d.php?t=306169 if anyone wants to have a listen.

So, I genuinely believe that automation has removed a human element to DJing that used to be part of a great DJs arsenal. Can a sync based DJ re-find this human element? Am I just an elderly dinosaur of years past that doesnt understand the current state of play?

This is not a "Sync is cheating" discussion. So anyone harping on about that shit can fuck right off. Its more than that. Its about an almost an esoteric element to DJing that may, or may not, have been left by the wayside in the quest to "do more things" as a DJ...
First off, thank you so much for pointing out that mix. I had not heard this before and I've been listening to the just part 1 at work today, and so far it's excellent. I've downloaded all 4 files and am very excited to jam with Danny Howells from start to finish.

Secondly, I agree that there is a human touch missing a lot of times with the current state of "EDM", although as someone else mentioned, there are those amazing DJ's out there who almost never make a mistake even when playing with vinyl (Hawtin certainly, Digweed & Sasha - although I've heard mistakes from them on occassion, but nothing major). My point is, just because you don't make a mistake doesn't mean that its missing a human touch IMO - but I believe what's happening is that with the advent of all this technology - which is great because we can do all sorts of crazy creative things that you could never do with two pieces of vinyl (or more if you are a true G) - with all the efx, loops and button mashing, we have lost the art of just letting the original emotion of the song to break through to the crowd. I feel like the instant gratification of sync and electronic wizardry means that there is a lot more boredom in the DJ booth, which has led to a feeling that the crowd is getting bored, so the DJ feels the need to fuck with something. I believe it's great in moderation, but too many DJ's are so focused on the efx and whatnot that they forget about the music. I believe a lot of DJ's now are afraid to just let a song play. Too many are focused on the presentation (their own) and what they can do to "perform" instead of letting the music itself carry the day and realize that its the DJ's track selection that can build the mood, which should evolve dependent upon what the crowd wants/needs. The best is when a DJ knows what the crowd wants before they even do. That's why I love listening to live recorded sets because its so much more ... visceral I guess. And even then, being present in the club is a thousand times better (something about huge speakers does that to me I guess).

My wife sometimes asks me why I love electronic music so much - she complains about it due to the repetitive nature of it. For me, the repetitiveness of it lends itself to getting stuck in a groove, when the music flows and sucks you in, at which point even the smallest little change in direction by the DJ through track selection just builds and builds the tension of energy among the crowd. I feel like a lot of the music and DJ's that are popular now completely miss this element - it's all about generating energy through smashing the crowds heads in with huge beats, drops, and cheap tricks from the moment they come on until they are off. There's no sense of building anything - almost like they are afraid that they are going to lose the crowd if they don't kill it from the first moment. With sets being only 1.5-2 hours long max, each "EDM" DJ is trying to one up the other by playing huge hits and massive songs. The DJ's back in the day that were the most popular (and still are in my book) like Tenaglia, Digweed, Wink, et al. would play ridiculous 8-12 hour sets that would just drag you into a hypnotic trance and by the end, you would have traveled a musical journey that was incredible. I don't believe we get that very much these days any longer because the appetite for letting the DJ take the crowd on a journey is lacking, at least at most places here in the States.

My two cents...
Tesha Freudenstein
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
You as a dj listen more intently when you mix on vinyl, on cdj's you listen about half as much as the bpm counter does most of the work, with software you barely listen and instead watch the various displays to tell you what the music is doing.

When you listen more closely your mixing is more subtle and more respectful of the original productions, if you don't listen you can be great with timing but give the eq's no love which is where the focus should be. All IMO from my experience of course... After learning this for myself I built myself a skin with no waves and hidden song views so I am flying blind and have no option but to listen more intently and go with my instincts.

Think less = hear more
i can confirm that. the less i focus on my screen the better my mixes turn out (it's also more fun).

and i personally love to hear some little human screwups in DJ sets like a a drifting beat that is corrected here and there. somewhat makes it fun to listen to listen to. sets like the ones by roger sanchez or carl cox or basically most pre 2005 sets have something "human" too it that many sets now don't have.
Werner Bile
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
You as a dj listen more intently when you mix on vinyl, on cdj's you listen about half as much as the bpm counter does most of the work, with software you barely listen and instead watch the various displays to tell you what the music is doing.

When you listen more closely your mixing is more subtle and more respectful of the original productions, if you don't listen you can be great with timing but give the eq's no love which is where the focus should be. All IMO from my experience of course... After learning this for myself I built myself a skin with no waves and hidden song views so I am flying blind and have no option but to listen more intently and go with my instincts.

Think less = hear more
Great post
Werner Bile
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by Xonetacular
I hear what you're saying. It has nothing to do with cheating or any of that, there is definitely a certain quality of a DJ set that comes with the workflow of mixing on vinyl or even CDs or flash drives that I don't notice from most synced sets. I've heard some amazing all synced traktor sets (hawtin, etc), but there is a different quality from a lot of good traditional sets that somehow feels more connective when you can hear the errors and human element that forms a different sort of connection with the dj and is a different experience. I don't know if it is all better or all worse, because I've certainly heard a lot of crap sets from either side- but a great synced set vs a great traditional set is just different. The last one that comes to mind was seeing justin martin destroying it on two decks, it felt like there was such a strong connection between crowd and DJ and you could put yourself behind the decks and understand his decision making and thought process from hearing the subtle human nuances as he went between genres and styles and there was such a strong connection to the crowd that is why I like to see great DJs.
Richie's sets sounded sync'd before sync even existed. He's pretty much always been flawless in that regard. Maybe for that reason, he's never had the energy or the controlled chaos feel that someone like Jeff Mills has. That's not intended as a bash on Hawtin, I spent the better part of the 90s worshiping the guy. I've seen both he and Mills countless times, and I've seen them both fall flat on occassion and I've seen them both spin jaw dropping sets. I guess my point is that both styles have merit and as Richie has shown, the perfectionist, super smooth long mix style (which sync tends to produce)works perfectly well when you do it right.
Trista Karle
03.08.2012		I don't sync I don't beat grid use my ns6 hell hardly look at the screen more then 10secs per song or just at time... Might come from my vinyl background then cdj background and now controller background. I beat match almost entirely manually, I say this since I will glance at bpm read out.

Yes I could beat grid and use sync but that destroys the feeling of joy I get when I let the record go in time and then fine tune with a nudge.... Hell mixing this way for 13 to 14 years doubt I'd change it.

My opioin

Yes vinyl sets sound better
Cdj sets you can tell when the person is. Beat matching by bp
Readout only so don't kid yourself cdj djs can be just as bad as sync. Plus cdjs allow allot more then they did 12 years ago
Lavone Grignon
03.08.2012		I agree with the Initial post & 1st response. I went to see Sebo K not so long ago and was one of the worst gigs I have ever been to. There was not mixing flaws or anything like that, but it was so programmed and there was zero spontaneity in his mix. I feel that is down to laptop watching instead of feeling the tracks. [IM NOT SAYING ALL LAPTOP DJS DO THIS] but its completely different style of DJing. I'm nearly 30 and getting very cranky so maybe that's my problem... I enjoyed my 10 year gig in Dublin's Morgan bar, I enjoy my radio show mixing via our CDJ 900s & two 1210s - so I leave the future to the Kids and there toys and say best of luck and will just enjoy sets from tried & tested DJs that have never let me down before...
Tari Virdi
03.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
You as a dj listen more intently when you mix on vinyl, on cdj's you listen about half as much as the bpm counter does most of the work, with software you barely listen and instead watch the various displays to tell you what the music is doing.

When you listen more closely your mixing is more subtle and more respectful of the original productions, if you don't listen you can be great with timing but give the eq's no love which is where the focus should be. All IMO from my experience of course... After learning this for myself I built myself a skin with no waves and hidden song views so I am flying blind and have no option but to listen more intently and go with my instincts.

Think less = hear more
I agree 100%...
Freida Leash
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by LoopCat
lol wtf I didn't post that. ^

Oops grabbed the wrong quote.
Ming Devis
02.08.2012		lol wtf I didn't post that. ^
Freida Leash
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by LoopCat
I feel like the instant gratification of sync and electronic wizardry means that there is a lot more boredom in the DJ booth, which has led to a feeling that the crowd is getting bored, so the DJ feels the need to fuck with something.
I feel this to a strong degree. I love pulling a routine, it is great to juggle and mash things to oblivion and back, too much of a great thing is bad. Effects be under everything, adding to it, not blatantly beating you up. People should take time to develop mixes and song selection, it is awesome to make a long slow build in energy, and drop it back down again.

One of the reasons I never really appreciated Chicago House/Booty House as much as I could have is that the hyper fast mixing style, much like effect mashing today, never let the groove build. I found tons of songs I liked but when the songs are all mixed out on the next 16th beat, it becomes too jarring, and less fun for me to dance too.

Personally I don't believe sync matters between whether it sounds human or good, I believe careful attention to phrasing, the way the phrase is brought in either by eq, line fader or crossfader. Most of the talented dj's that I respect could ride the pitch a nudge and hold it closer than I believe I can with sync with out notable drift.
Ming Devis
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by photojojo
On the other hand I guess sync can magnify the problem because it's easier and quicker for newer DJ's to believe they're sounding good because it's beat matched. On that same level though it would be just as easy to blame Soundcloud, Youtube and all the other ways that make it extremely easy to get your mediocre mix out there.
I agree. Plus lots of new DJ's don't train there ears at all and rely on sync or BPM read outs to mix and don't realise that their mix is out. They believe in the computer way too much and don't use the platter or pitch fader to adjust. So many new DJ's especially ones brought up on new Pioneer gear just match the BPM's and hit play on the first beat. If their throw is a nit off they just roll with it. One reason why I chose TT's for my first set up was so I could have a collection of vinyl on the side to train my ear and use DVS when I want to play mp3's.
Carmelo Politowicz
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by guiltyblade
I've thought a lot of people to dj. I almost always start them on cdjs, for the most part so they can get some success easily. I don't want it handed to them because then its just kinda pointless. I've told people that people in the audience are not watching music, they are listening to music, therefore you should be listening too.
Totally agree. Speaking of which, when are you going to teach me how to play on your CDJ's? I'm waiting to hear back from the SFDG Beat-Repeat guys; hopefully I get a slot soon.
Carmelo Politowicz
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by Era 7
i can confirm that. the less i focus on my screen the better my mixes turn out (it's also more fun).

and i personally love to hear some little human screwups in DJ sets like a a drifting beat that is corrected here and there. somewhat makes it fun to listen to listen to. sets like the ones by roger sanchez or carl cox or basically most pre 2005 sets have something "human" too it that many sets now don't have.
I love hearing it not because it sounds good to my ear, but because it makes me feel like they are human. If Carl Cox can mess up when playing in front of 10k people at a festival and blow it off, I can mess up on a mix in front of 50 people and (try) to not worry about it. It makes me feel like a better DJ to know that the pro's can mess up just like I do - I know that's selfish and egotistical, but I get a kick out of it in a way - and mostly because 99% of my friends never even hear the "mistake," so in a sense, it reminds me that I am being WAY too critical of my own mixes when I listen to them.
Carmelo Politowicz
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by oliosky
I love good djing and an amazing DJ set. It makes me smile and feel a certain warmth inside that is completely different to the feeling that a produced album or to a completely different extent, a live artist set can achieve. Its different. Its immediate with a element of recognisability. Its almost physically tangible when you can hear through the selection what is going on in a DJs head when they mix in the next record.

And this is why I love to hear amazing non-synced, non programmed DJ set these days. For me, there is an extra element to a set, be it live or listening to it recorded where you hear those human elements in eq-ing, a slightly off beat that is quickly corrected or a rough quick mix that is thrown in because the current tune might be fucking up the chi.

I was listening to an old Danny Howells set, which was over 4 hours mind, in the final set at ARC NYC in 2004 with Danny Tenaglia and it dawned on me what was missing from so much current stuff. This was a time of records and Howells just dominates with an immediacy and mixing prowess that manages to draw you in listening on your ipod some 8 years later. I'm hanging off every selection. There is wild changes of BPM, of genre, and there is "obvious mixing" but its all makes me feel as if I was standing there in 2004, sweating like a sex criminal. The links to the set are here http://www.inthemix.com.au/community /sho...d.php?t=306169 if anyone wants to have a listen.

So, I genuinely believe that automation has removed a human element to DJing that used to be part of a great DJs arsenal. Can a sync based DJ re-find this human element? Am I just an elderly dinosaur of years past that doesnt understand the current state of play?

This is not a "Sync is cheating" discussion. So anyone harping on about that shit can fuck right off. Its more than that. Its about an almost an esoteric element to DJing that may, or may not, have been left by the wayside in the quest to "do more things" as a DJ...
First off, thank you so much for pointing out that mix. I had not heard this before and I've been listening to the just part 1 at work today, and so far it's excellent. I've downloaded all 4 files and am very excited to jam with Danny Howells from start to finish.

Secondly, I agree that there is a human touch missing a lot of times with the current state of "EDM", although as someone else mentioned, there are those amazing DJ's out there who almost never make a mistake even when playing with vinyl (Hawtin certainly, Digweed & Sasha - although I've heard mistakes from them on occassion, but nothing major). My point is, just because you don't make a mistake doesn't mean that its missing a human touch IMO - but I believe what's happening is that with the advent of all this technology - which is great because we can do all sorts of crazy creative things that you could never do with two pieces of vinyl (or more if you are a true G) - with all the efx, loops and button mashing, we have lost the art of just letting the original emotion of the song to break through to the crowd. I feel like the instant gratification of sync and electronic wizardry means that there is a lot more boredom in the DJ booth, which has led to a feeling that the crowd is getting bored, so the DJ feels the need to fuck with something. I believe it's great in moderation, but too many DJ's are so focused on the efx and whatnot that they forget about the music. I believe a lot of DJ's now are afraid to just let a song play. Too many are focused on the presentation (their own) and what they can do to "perform" instead of letting the music itself carry the day and realize that its the DJ's track selection that can build the mood, which should evolve dependent upon what the crowd wants/needs. The best is when a DJ knows what the crowd wants before they even do. That's why I love listening to live recorded sets because its so much more ... visceral I guess. And even then, being present in the club is a thousand times better (something about huge speakers does that to me I guess).

My wife sometimes asks me why I love electronic music so much - she complains about it due to the repetitive nature of it. For me, the repetitiveness of it lends itself to getting stuck in a groove, when the music flows and sucks you in, at which point even the smallest little change in direction by the DJ through track selection just builds and builds the tension of energy among the crowd. I feel like a lot of the music and DJ's that are popular now completely miss this element - it's all about generating energy through smashing the crowds heads in with huge beats, drops, and cheap tricks from the moment they come on until they are off. There's no sense of building anything - almost like they are afraid that they are going to lose the crowd if they don't kill it from the first moment. With sets being only 1.5-2 hours long max, each "EDM" DJ is trying to one up the other by playing huge hits and massive songs. The DJ's back in the day that were the most popular (and still are in my book) like Tenaglia, Digweed, Wink, et al. would play ridiculous 8-12 hour sets that would just drag you into a hypnotic trance and by the end, you would have traveled a musical journey that was incredible. I don't believe we get that very much these days any longer because the appetite for letting the DJ take the crowd on a journey is lacking, at least at most places here in the States.

My two cents...
Alla Bluemke
02.08.2012		I've thought a lot of people to dj. I almost always start them on cdjs, for the most part so they can get some success easily. I don't want it handed to them because then its just kinda pointless. I've told people that people in the audience are not watching music, they are listening to music, therefore you should be listening too.
Tesha Freudenstein
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
You as a dj listen more intently when you mix on vinyl, on cdj's you listen about half as much as the bpm counter does most of the work, with software you barely listen and instead watch the various displays to tell you what the music is doing.

When you listen more closely your mixing is more subtle and more respectful of the original productions, if you don't listen you can be great with timing but give the eq's no love which is where the focus should be. All IMO from my experience of course... After learning this for myself I built myself a skin with no waves and hidden song views so I am flying blind and have no option but to listen more intently and go with my instincts.

Think less = hear more
i can confirm that. the less i focus on my screen the better my mixes turn out (it's also more fun).

and i personally love to hear some little human screwups in DJ sets like a a drifting beat that is corrected here and there. somewhat makes it fun to listen to listen to. sets like the ones by roger sanchez or carl cox or basically most pre 2005 sets have something "human" too it that many sets now don't have.
Latina Samon
02.08.2012		I like hearing the likes of Sven Vath and Seth Troxler mess a bit of mixing up because you know full well why and they're having as much fun as everyone else!
Werner Bile
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by synthet1c
You as a dj listen more intently when you mix on vinyl, on cdj's you listen about half as much as the bpm counter does most of the work, with software you barely listen and instead watch the various displays to tell you what the music is doing.

When you listen more closely your mixing is more subtle and more respectful of the original productions, if you don't listen you can be great with timing but give the eq's no love which is where the focus should be. All IMO from my experience of course... After learning this for myself I built myself a skin with no waves and hidden song views so I am flying blind and have no option but to listen more intently and go with my instincts.

Think less = hear more
Great post
Jonathan Chiuchiolo
02.08.2012		You as a dj listen more intently when you mix on vinyl, on cdj's you listen about half as much as the bpm counter does most of the work, with software you barely listen and instead watch the various displays to tell you what the music is doing.

When you listen more closely your mixing is more subtle and more respectful of the original productions, if you don't listen you can be great with timing but give the eq's no love which is where the focus should be. All IMO from my experience of course... After learning this for myself I built myself a skin with no waves and hidden song views so I am flying blind and have no option but to listen more intently and go with my instincts.

Think less = hear more
Galina Mancinas
02.08.2012		It's an interesting take on a phenomenon that I've experienced as well. There is definitely a component that exists in a set on turntables or CDJ's as opposed to a set done all synced up (especially an Ableton set).

I have a hard time putting my finger on exactly what it is, but the closest guess I can come up with is that the brain kind of likes the sound of steady beats sliding a bit back and forth out of time, perhaps the game of catch-up between beats. Some of the sweetest moments in mixes I've heard are sooooo close to the line of being trainwrecks and then wrenched into line to just.....sing.

I haven't had the chance to mix on anything "manual" yet, don't really know that I'd possess the quick-read\dexterity to be good at it, so my hope is that the "near chaos brought into line" sound isn't the salt in the cookie which I'll never possess.

Something tells me it's more of a spice though, and this dish goes well with a lot of different ones. Now that I've had a chance to even slightly wrap my head around the workflow afforded by a regular controller plus an F1, I can't fathom being without it. You couldn't even believe of working that way without sync\quant.

Four loops plus a track going is a really good way to probe right up to the limits of chaos as well. I know that's where the goodness lies, the shit as well, but the goodness also.

This thread got me believeing of a track. The intro to this track remind me of what I'm trying to describe. The first 30 seconds sounds so off, almost dissonant. Something in your brain tells you the timing or something is whack.

Then, right at 30 seconds, kick starts and beat slides into time. Music. That "thing" happens a lot more in a live set on turntables\cdjs.
Werner Bile
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by Xonetacular
I hear what you're saying. It has nothing to do with cheating or any of that, there is definitely a certain quality of a DJ set that comes with the workflow of mixing on vinyl or even CDs or flash drives that I don't notice from most synced sets. I've heard some amazing all synced traktor sets (hawtin, etc), but there is a different quality from a lot of good traditional sets that somehow feels more connective when you can hear the errors and human element that forms a different sort of connection with the dj and is a different experience. I don't know if it is all better or all worse, because I've certainly heard a lot of crap sets from either side- but a great synced set vs a great traditional set is just different. The last one that comes to mind was seeing justin martin destroying it on two decks, it felt like there was such a strong connection between crowd and DJ and you could put yourself behind the decks and understand his decision making and thought process from hearing the subtle human nuances as he went between genres and styles and there was such a strong connection to the crowd that is why I like to see great DJs.
Richie's sets sounded sync'd before sync even existed. He's pretty much always been flawless in that regard. Maybe for that reason, he's never had the energy or the controlled chaos feel that someone like Jeff Mills has. That's not intended as a bash on Hawtin, I spent the better part of the 90s worshiping the guy. I've seen both he and Mills countless times, and I've seen them both fall flat on occassion and I've seen them both spin jaw dropping sets. I guess my point is that both styles have merit and as Richie has shown, the perfectionist, super smooth long mix style (which sync tends to produce)works perfectly well when you do it right.
Romelia Stankard
02.08.2012		I hear what you're saying. It has nothing to do with cheating or any of that, there is definitely a certain quality of a DJ set that comes with the workflow of mixing on vinyl or even CDs or flash drives that I don't notice from most synced sets. I've heard some amazing all synced traktor sets (hawtin, etc), but there is a different quality from a lot of good traditional sets that somehow feels more connective when you can hear the errors and human element that forms a different sort of connection with the dj and is a different experience. I don't know if it is all better or all worse, because I've certainly heard a lot of crap sets from either side- but a great synced set vs a great traditional set is just different. The last one that comes to mind was seeing justin martin destroying it on two decks, it felt like there was such a strong connection between crowd and DJ and you could put yourself behind the decks and understand his decision making and thought process from hearing the subtle human nuances as he went between genres and styles and there was such a strong connection to the crowd that is why I like to see great DJs.
Lashawn Maycock
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by Patch
Kinda hear you - but i believe you're over believeing it.

NOT sync'ing doesn't FORCE you to work on those elements of the mix that you find appealing, such as:



That all comes from experience. You can still gain that experience while using sync - but there are no shortcuts. You can only gain that experience by CONSTANTLY playing out. Play out to 10, 100 or 1000 people, you have to do it in order to get that experience.

Sync is good for those of us with a short attention span - you can get up and DJ'ing in no time. But experienced listeners (like your good self) can spot those elements that are missing (that the DJ can only have from experience) and know that so much more is possible.

Of course, the flip side to that coin is that the CROWD ALSO needs experience - otherwise, they only believe what is plonked in front of them is possible.

This is bad - and it is where the EDM scene in the U.S is gonna shit on itself BIG TIME. Inexperienced clubbers and inexperienced DJ's are gonna kill the scene before it has had decent time to develop. People will turn up to a rave/festival/gig with high hopes, and be let down because the DJ will not have the necessary years of experience to blow people away.

Bad times ahead. But don't forget - DJ's like Carl Cox, Danny Howells, the great Tony De Vit, etc... had been doing this for YEARS (literally 20+ years) before getting proper recognition. 20 years is a hell of a lot of experience. You can't buy that, nomatter how much money you've got.

2nd wave EDM in the US will be HUGE - 'cos all of the guys that stuck with it when it (and it will) falls out of favour, will have those extra years of experience, AND fuckin' kick ass gear and software.

The future's bright - but it's far off...

Leeanna Ayla
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by MWagner
lol. last time I checked, around here "second wave" refered to guys like Richie Hawtin.
Yeah, this is at least the third maybe fourth wave.
Werner Bile
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by Patch
2nd wave EDM in the US will be HUGE - 'cos all of the guys that stuck with it when it (and it will) falls out of favour, will have those extra years of experience, AND fuckin' kick ass gear and software.

lol. last time I checked, around here "second wave" refered to guys like Richie Hawtin.
Leeanna Ayla
02.08.2012		On the other hand I guess sync can magnify the problem because it's easier and quicker for newer DJ's to believe they're sounding good because it's beat matched. On that same level though it would be just as easy to blame Soundcloud, Youtube and all the other ways that make it extremely easy to get your mediocre mix out there.
Leeanna Ayla
02.08.2012		I don't believe sync has anything to do with it other than the fact that maybe the majority of newer DJ's might be using sync. Because they're new their song selection might not be that great. If the song selection's not great but the mixing is flawless it would be easy to jump to the conclusion that they're using sync. Then it's just as easy to blame sync, when it's really the lack of experience that is causing the problem.

Sync is just a tool. I use it, sometimes I have bad sets, sometimes I have good sets. Sync doesn't have anything to do with that because my song selection is the same regardless of what buttons I'm pushing. .
Johnetta Olewine
02.08.2012		Botstein. The feeling is completely different. I didn't word that very well. A real live show is nothing like a DJ set, and never will be. Edited.
Ervin Calvery
02.08.2012
Originally Posted by oliosky
I love good djing and an amazing DJ set. It makes me smile and feel a certain warmth inside that is completely different to the feeling that a produced album or to a lesser extent a live artist set can achieve. Its different. Its immediate with a element of recognisability. Its almost physically tangible when you can hear through the selection what is going on in a DJs head when they mix in the next record.
I'm confused - what feeling do you get that is stronger when hearing a produced set than hearing someone live?
Brunilda Kora
02.08.2012		Kinda hear you - but i believe you're over believeing it.

NOT sync'ing doesn't FORCE you to work on those elements of the mix that you find appealing, such as:

human elements in eq-ing, a slightly off beat that is quickly corrected or a rough quick mix that is thrown in because the current tune might be fucking up the chi.
That all comes from experience. You can still gain that experience while using sync - but there are no shortcuts. You can only gain that experience by CONSTANTLY playing out. Play out to 10, 100 or 1000 people, you have to do it in order to get that experience.

Sync is good for those of us with a short attention span - you can get up and DJ'ing in no time. But experienced listeners (like your good self) can spot those elements that are missing (that the DJ can only have from experience) and know that so much more is possible.

Of course, the flip side to that coin is that the CROWD ALSO needs experience - otherwise, they only believe what is plonked in front of them is possible.

This is bad - and it is where the EDM scene in the U.S is gonna shit on itself BIG TIME. Inexperienced clubbers and inexperienced DJ's are gonna kill the scene before it has had decent time to develop. People will turn up to a rave/festival/gig with high hopes, and be let down because the DJ will not have the necessary years of experience to blow people away.

Bad times ahead. But don't forget - DJ's like Carl Cox, Danny Howells, the great Tony De Vit, etc... had been doing this for YEARS (literally 20+ years) before getting proper recognition. 20 years is a hell of a lot of experience. You can't buy that, nomatter how much money you've got.

2nd wave EDM in the US will be HUGE - 'cos all of the guys that stuck with it when it (and it will) falls out of favour, will have those extra years of experience, AND fuckin' kick ass gear and software.

The future's bright - but it's far off...

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