Noobie question - When to start playing second song

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Noobie question - When to start playing second song
Posted on: 15.05.2013 by Jen Piersma
So I just got a mixer today, and the thing I've been having trouble with is starting the second song at the right spot. I am using Virtual DJ and I know when I want the beat drop to happen, I know when I want to mix in the second song, but I don't know when to start it to get it to drop at the right part. Is there a way I can tell when I need to start a song? Is there a way that virtual DJ displays 8 bar phrases? That would be extremely helpful. For example say I want to put the beat drop on the second song that is loaded (and not playing), but sometimes I start the second song 4 counts too early, so when the first song (the one that is playing) is building up the second song has already dropped.
Meaghan Machold
17.05.2013
Originally Posted by baller95
I believe your tracks automatically snap onto the beat grid despite where you hit play, I'm not too familiar with VDJ but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, is there a way to switch this off? That might help.
sounds like you're talking about quantize/sync?
Ngoc Ninow
17.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
can we let him be a beginner first?
Being a beginner is one of the best things about mixing, and then when things start to kick in and you get a feel for it, it feels pretty awesome :-)

I'm not sure where I sit on the reading waveforms side of things. It can be useful, but make sure it doesn't become a crutch. I tend use them a lot when I am setting cue points in traktor, but don't tend to play a huge amount of attention to them in a live situation. I am aware of them, but don't rely on them. It's kinda like looking at a piece of vinyl.... You can see where the loud and quiet areas of the track are going to be, which is useful for finding drops and breakdowns etc, but liked said before, don't overly rely on them.

That's just my view on it, and no doubt someone else will be along to add their 2c as well. There is no strict rule.... Find what works for you and have fun!
Margie Pavell
17.05.2013
Originally Posted by johney
because that's how you never stop being a beginner
can we let him be a beginner first?
Pilar Maure
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by Stewe
It comes with years of practice and love for music you mix. Then you can simply feel when is the right spot to play next track, it's like your finger does it before you believe of it

I'm not sh*ting ya!
Wise words, had a discussion about EQ'ing and the other week and it's the same really, non DJ's look on and have no idea what you are doing but it becomes instinctual.
Same as mixing a record. Personally it is instinct and years of training your ear and sense of rhythm and timing that allows you to do this.
Latoria Kavulich
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by Stewe
It comes with years of practice and love for music you mix. Then you can simply feel when is the right spot to play next track, it's like your finger does it before you believe of it

I'm not sh*ting ya!
Words of wisdom.
Also, it's music not a maths test
Augustine Mitzen
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
I didn't learn that way. I use the wav forms as I would any other tool.

I have 20 years experience on 1200s and CDJs...far from a beginner...
That's the key difference
Meaghan Machold
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
so it makes me a beginner to check out the wav forms on a new track?
yes and no.

I learned this way too. I would use the wave forms in traktor, and try and figure out if a section is 32 beats, and then when i would wanna drop a song, i would go back 32 beats and put a hot cue there so i knew the part was coming. I learned that way... and it was terribly hard and inconvenient... it wasnt until i picked up song structure that i didnt even rely on wave forms.

now my wave forms in traktor are set to the smallest setting cause its a waste of screen space. i barely even look at my screen except to pick a song maybe.
Margie Pavell
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by johney
because that's how you never stop being a beginner
so it makes me a beginner to check out the wav forms on a new track?
Augustine Mitzen
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
the wav forms are a good tool to use as a beginner so you can physically see what you have to work with. NOTHING replaces knowing your tunes. This person is a beginner and asking a very basic question. Why not let him use the the technology to help get him/her started?
because that's how you never stop being a beginner
Arnulfo Morten
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
the wav forms are a good tool to use as a beginner so you can physically see what you have to work with. NOTHING replaces knowing your tunes. This person is a beginner and asking a very basic question. Why not let him use the the technology to help get him/her started?
because bad habits are hard to break.... learn it once learn it right don't waste your time you'll thank us later
Cindie Somoza
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by djmetalgear
i feel like this advice is actually flawed. you shouldn't be reading wave forms. you should be learning song structure. its not hard. american and most eastern european song structures fall in 4ths 8ths 16ths and 32nd bars. learn your songs and its not a problem. you should be able to drop a song without looking at wave forms. Of course its great to learn with them, but dont rely on them forever.
I feel this is also flawed in a sense, whilst it's definitely fundamental to understand 'standard' bar structures, more and more now people are starting to play around with time signatures in electronic music, I've seen people use 5/4 and 7/4 and so on, so don't just keyhole yourself to learning that a 'general' electronic song MAY have 32 bars in the intro, that's silly. Teach yourself a real lesson and learn how count properly and read/ perform all different types of time signatures.

Easiest one is don't count 1,2,3,4....1,2,3,4....1,2,3,4... because then you dont know what bar your on.........lol

It's 1,2,3,4....2,2,3,4......3,2,3,4.....
Augustine Mitzen
18.05.2013		there's no such thing in vdj (at least in 7) unless you sync a track that's already playing, then it syncs the tempo and snaps to grid
Meaghan Machold
17.05.2013
Originally Posted by baller95
I believe your tracks automatically snap onto the beat grid despite where you hit play, I'm not too familiar with VDJ but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, is there a way to switch this off? That might help.
sounds like you're talking about quantize/sync?
Ngoc Ninow
17.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
can we let him be a beginner first?
Being a beginner is one of the best things about mixing, and then when things start to kick in and you get a feel for it, it feels pretty awesome :-)

I'm not sure where I sit on the reading waveforms side of things. It can be useful, but make sure it doesn't become a crutch. I tend use them a lot when I am setting cue points in traktor, but don't tend to play a huge amount of attention to them in a live situation. I am aware of them, but don't rely on them. It's kinda like looking at a piece of vinyl.... You can see where the loud and quiet areas of the track are going to be, which is useful for finding drops and breakdowns etc, but liked said before, don't overly rely on them.

That's just my view on it, and no doubt someone else will be along to add their 2c as well. There is no strict rule.... Find what works for you and have fun!
Margie Pavell
17.05.2013
Originally Posted by johney
because that's how you never stop being a beginner
can we let him be a beginner first?
Pilar Maure
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by Stewe
It comes with years of practice and love for music you mix. Then you can simply feel when is the right spot to play next track, it's like your finger does it before you believe of it

I'm not sh*ting ya!
Wise words, had a discussion about EQ'ing and the other week and it's the same really, non DJ's look on and have no idea what you are doing but it becomes instinctual.
Same as mixing a record. Personally it is instinct and years of training your ear and sense of rhythm and timing that allows you to do this.
Latoria Kavulich
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by Stewe
It comes with years of practice and love for music you mix. Then you can simply feel when is the right spot to play next track, it's like your finger does it before you believe of it

I'm not sh*ting ya!
Words of wisdom.
Also, it's music not a maths test
Ela Hoeger
16.05.2013		I believe your tracks automatically snap onto the beat grid despite where you hit play, I'm not too familiar with VDJ but if anyone knows what I'm talking about, is there a way to switch this off? That might help.
Kellie Myrum
16.05.2013		It comes with years of practice and love for music you mix. Then you can simply feel when is the right spot to play next track, it's like your finger does it before you believe of it

I'm not sh*ting ya!
Augustine Mitzen
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
I didn't learn that way. I use the wav forms as I would any other tool.

I have 20 years experience on 1200s and CDJs...far from a beginner...
That's the key difference
Margie Pavell
16.05.2013		I didn't learn that way. I use the wav forms as I would any other tool.

I have 20 years experience on 1200s and CDJs...far from a beginner...
Meaghan Machold
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
so it makes me a beginner to check out the wav forms on a new track?
yes and no.

I learned this way too. I would use the wave forms in traktor, and try and figure out if a section is 32 beats, and then when i would wanna drop a song, i would go back 32 beats and put a hot cue there so i knew the part was coming. I learned that way... and it was terribly hard and inconvenient... it wasnt until i picked up song structure that i didnt even rely on wave forms.

now my wave forms in traktor are set to the smallest setting cause its a waste of screen space. i barely even look at my screen except to pick a song maybe.
Margie Pavell
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by johney
because that's how you never stop being a beginner
so it makes me a beginner to check out the wav forms on a new track?
Sonja Roybal
16.05.2013		Like others have said, learn song structure. Also, listen to your favorite dj mixes. Really listen to their blends. Song structure will become second nature. Sure, some songs are wonky. They'll have an extra bar before the drop or really long breakdown. Make a mental note of these tunes. The advice abou only playing 15 or so songs is money. You'll start to hate them, but you'll learn. Don't overwhelm yourself with too much music.
Augustine Mitzen
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
the wav forms are a good tool to use as a beginner so you can physically see what you have to work with. NOTHING replaces knowing your tunes. This person is a beginner and asking a very basic question. Why not let him use the the technology to help get him/her started?
because that's how you never stop being a beginner
Arnulfo Morten
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
the wav forms are a good tool to use as a beginner so you can physically see what you have to work with. NOTHING replaces knowing your tunes. This person is a beginner and asking a very basic question. Why not let him use the the technology to help get him/her started?
because bad habits are hard to break.... learn it once learn it right don't waste your time you'll thank us later
Jen Piersma
16.05.2013		thank you for everyone's advice! I guess I will just have to learn my songs better...I am not using headphones right now so it's a little more difficult for me to hear when the song is actually coming in. I've been doing what Tortanga posted about (counting back from the drop and starting the first song at that point) but I guess with headphones it is a lot easier to hear where you are in the loaded song so you know where to start it, right? I need to get my headphone adapter already lol
Margie Pavell
17.05.2013		the wav forms are a good tool to use as a beginner so you can physically see what you have to work with. NOTHING replaces knowing your tunes. This person is a beginner and asking a very basic question. Why not let him use the the technology to help get him/her started?
Cindie Somoza
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by djmetalgear
i feel like this advice is actually flawed. you shouldn't be reading wave forms. you should be learning song structure. its not hard. american and most eastern european song structures fall in 4ths 8ths 16ths and 32nd bars. learn your songs and its not a problem. you should be able to drop a song without looking at wave forms. Of course its great to learn with them, but dont rely on them forever.
I feel this is also flawed in a sense, whilst it's definitely fundamental to understand 'standard' bar structures, more and more now people are starting to play around with time signatures in electronic music, I've seen people use 5/4 and 7/4 and so on, so don't just keyhole yourself to learning that a 'general' electronic song MAY have 32 bars in the intro, that's silly. Teach yourself a real lesson and learn how count properly and read/ perform all different types of time signatures.

Easiest one is don't count 1,2,3,4....1,2,3,4....1,2,3,4... because then you dont know what bar your on.........lol

It's 1,2,3,4....2,2,3,4......3,2,3,4.....
Katie Ahmady
16.05.2013		All of this is good advice, although if you want a little bit of a shortcut here is a "cheating" technique I've used...

So you know when you want the drop of the second song to come in, right? Listen to the second song and count the number of beats from the beginning of the song until the drop. It'll probably be a multiple of 32. Then, once you have that number, pull up the waveform for the first song and count that many beats BACK from the point where you want the drop of the second song to hit and drop a cue point there.

This way, when you play the first song, you'll know to press play on the second song as soon as you see that cue point.
Yajaira Harang
16.05.2013		Know your music and respect the phrasing of the songs ! Very important you get that idea !
Libbie Orion
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by djmetalgear
i feel like this advice is actually flawed. you shouldn't be reading wave forms. you should be learning song structure. its not hard. american and most eastern european song structures fall in 4ths 8ths 16ths and 32nd bars. learn your songs and its not a problem. you should be able to drop a song without looking at wave forms. Of course its great to learn with them, but dont rely on them forever.
i agree
every genre of music has a pattern. between songs it doesnt change that much
If you stay focused on that particular type of music for a bit, youll get it.
The human brain works best with patters. its why we stare at semetrical things longer
and random shapes lesser time. When it comes to our ears, they tell our brains whats going on. so the bottom line is
just listen, carefully
Meaghan Machold
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by keithace
It will come with practice. You can do it by subtracking the amount of lead time on the second record from the end of the first record. Say your intro is two minutes long on the second record. You subtract two minutes from the end of the first record and start it then. (of course listening to when there is natural place around that time to start the second record is paramount...this is what is called phrasing and song structure.)

After some time you will be able to read the wav forms and recognized how much of what you have left on a track. (breakdown, meat, outro) I'm able to read the grooves on a record and recognize how the song is structured. It all comes with time and practice.
i feel like this advice is actually flawed. you shouldn't be reading wave forms. you should be learning song structure. its not hard. american and most eastern european song structures fall in 4ths 8ths 16ths and 32nd bars. learn your songs and its not a problem. you should be able to drop a song without looking at wave forms. Of course its great to learn with them, but dont rely on them forever.
Yong Aptekar
16.05.2013		Learn your music inside and out. Resist the urge to go out and buy/DL as much music as possible. Instead, find 10-15 tracks that you really like, that go well together, and learn those. You should be able to hear the intro ending, hear it end, hear when the breakdown is coming, when a drop etc are supposed to happen, before they happen. Only when you know your music, will you know when to drop your next track.

There is no set rule, you can drop a track and cut over right away, you can drop it and let the outro play through the next tracks intro, play half of one track over the next, there's many ways to do it.

Don't try and confine yourself to just one way of bringing the next track in, you will end up uninspired, and you will get bored quick. Experiment with your tunes.

What kind of music are you trying to mix?
Augustine Mitzen
16.05.2013
Originally Posted by robbyluca
The only way is by learning your music. So a lot of practicing, listening, and memorizing.
that
Bethann Olortegui
16.05.2013		a good rule of thumb that helped me when learning was to start the next track (the one your mixing in) at around 1m30s remaining for house/electro and around 2m for techno. it will vary from song to song but your ears will tell you exactly when the phrases change.
Emelina Paglia
16.05.2013		The only way is by learning your music. So a lot of practicing, listening, and memorizing.
Rolanda Clodfelder
16.05.2013		You could cheat and either Start the intros and Drops on cue points or "beatjump" forwards and backwards x bars depending how your phrase is off ..

As keithace said though really just practice and practice to do this without cheating. Know your songs inside out to find the natural mix points that almost every track has.
Margie Pavell
15.05.2013		It will come with practice. You can do it by subtracking the amount of lead time on the second record from the end of the first record. Say your intro is two minutes long on the second record. You subtract two minutes from the end of the first record and start it then. (of course listening to when there is natural place around that time to start the second record is paramount...this is what is called phrasing and song structure.)

After some time you will be able to read the wav forms and recognized how much of what you have left on a track. (breakdown, meat, outro) I'm able to read the grooves on a record and recognize how the song is structured. It all comes with time and practice.

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